Water Hammer, Mud Spewing vents and Header?

Frank_Aloise

We have a house with a Weil- Mclain Steam boiler that is about 7 years old. The house and piping are over 100 years old.

We are having a pretty big issue with water hammer in the entire house. We have skimmed the boiler, drained and cleaned the boiler and have replaced vents in the basement with first Big Mouths and then the originals and still can't get it to quiet down. Someone has also suggested that the Header on the boiler is not high enough/big enough?

We replaced the old vents in the basement that looked like little bottles with Big Mouths that I found recommended here. However they are spewing muddy water all the time and a lot of it. Is this normal? Why? When we put newer ones, like the one shown in photo attached it also spews water...
One of these is attached to a high return near the boiler at the highest point and another is at the end of a long run across the basement on a return line.

Any ideas? The house does seem to heat OK, but it is loud and messy.

KC_Jones

Header is wrong, too low is only one of the problems. You have a colliding header, meaning the system takeoffs are between the boiler outputs. This could be causing some of the problems if not all of them.

What pressure are you running? Sounds like that could be a factor as well.

Jamie Hall

Well... nice insulation job. I suppose.

Pity the near boiler piping is completely wrong, though. Which is probably the source of most of your trouble. I can't see if there is an equalizer connection on the left side of the header, but even if there is, you have an arrangement which has a 100% guarantee of wet steam. Very wet steam.

There may be other issues as well, but until the near boiler piping is corrected there isn't much point in going looking for them.

acwagner

Vents spitting is not normal. What is the water level at in the boiler when it is off? What about when it is running--does the water line jump the full range of the site glass?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I am one of the more conservative posters. I will let questionable piping slide if it works. Yours wont work. period

hate to tell you but your near boiler piping is awful. header too small and too low. maybe no equalizer pipe.

It can be fixed

You need a good steam man to fix this. Where are you located? have you looked under "find a contractor" on this site??

Fred

In addition to the header issues, it looks like just about all of the returns are a big issue. Some look to be tied together well above the boiler, another one, on the left side looks to be tied into the boiler, above the water line, in what would/should be a skim tapping. I think I do see an equalizer, on the left side. off of that header but, from what I can see, I don't know what would keep steam out of what should be wet returns. That will definitely cause hammer and, depending on the system pressure, may well push water out through the vents. The near boiler piping really needs a complete re-pipe.
Have you ever taken the pigtails (looped pipes that the Pressuretrols are mounted on) off and cleaned them out? They may also be clogged and the system pressure may be running rampant, compounding the other issues.

Frank_Aloise

I am in Philadelphia. While there are many steam systems in the old homes around this neighborhood I have yet to find someone here who really know what they are doing. I have learned a lot from this site and knew this one was wrong- just not how wrong....
To answer comments:
The water in the site glass is about half way up. It seems to be pretty good- not jumping.
Don't know the pressure now- will check- unfortunately a few diff people work on this.

I have people who can redo the header if I have a design? How can I get that part right?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Download the installation manual for the boiler you have. Weil McLain has it on their website. This may be a model EG, look for the nameplate.

The near boiler piping diagram is in the manual

Oh, and make sure you piper/plumber follows it with no cheating.

And give him a reading test before giving him the job

acwagner

Can you post more photos of the boiler from all sides? It's hard to tell what is what and connected to what--you got water, gas, and steam piping all jumbled together.

Have you lived there a few years? Is this behavior new or has it always done this?

I agree the near boiler piping is a problem. But, I had boiler with similar piping issues, and was able to tame it. Not saying that'll be the case here, but if this behavior is recent there's a chance you can get it operating at a decent level.

If you're having trouble finding a good contractor, your first defense will be having a baseline knowledge of steam systems and how they work. As already recommended, get the boiler manual and read through it. Also, get either "We Got Steam Heat" or "The Lost Art of Steam Heating." They're both great primers for someone new to steam heat.

Paul48

At least one of those main vents is on a drop. It will spew water.

Jamie Hall

There are several very good steam men who come to that area. Try "Find a Contractor" -- but be sure to look in New Jersey and Maryland as well as Pennsylvania.

Lance

100 years old? Unless you have new return pipes there is a great chance of mud in those old pipes and a restriction due to scale build up. The only solution is to replace the return pipes and any main air vents that were affected. Must verify flushed and cleaned. This header is #@##@. This manufacturer wants to see 24" above the water line to the bottom of the header. I'm guessing you got 16" or less? All takeoffs from a header should be placed downstream past the final boiler riser connection. Never between them. OOPS! Trust me or not but I have seen this and fixed this many times. Also the boiler should have a drain valve on both sides otherwise flushing will only clear mud from the boiler drain side. Also: You might get away with it but depending on connected radiation, the boiler header should be larger than the branch risers connected. Hope this helps. Diagnostic Clue: From a cold start, the second boiler riser to get hot last may indicate sludge in the boiler on the side.

Frank_Aloise

Thank you so much for all the comments. It is all as I suspected from my reading here in the past and looking at drawings/photos. I have lined up some local Steam people to come look at it and help fix it.

For those interested this a Weil-Mclain EGH-95

I have had the drain valves put in on both sides so we are able to completely flush the boiler.

And the returns above do tie into a big return at the bottom of the boiler that you can't see- it is on the other side.

Fred

That's a huge boiler. Do you happen to know what the total EDR of the connected radiators is?

Jamie Hall

Fred said:

That's a huge boiler. Do you happen to know what the total EDR of the connected radiators is?

I was sort of wondering about that, too... since I consider Cedric to be fairly large, and ditto the place he heats, and this one is a good deal bigger.

EBEBRATT-Ed

That boiler needs (2) 2" risers and a minimum of a 3" header, 1 1/2" equalizer

Make sure your installer gets it right

Frank_Aloise

This is a giant house- prob about 7000 Sq Ft- about a hundred years old. Giant stone thing with many rooms- 3 full floors.
The boiler was a replacement of an existing one. I will look into the EDR

Jamie Hall

Larger houses (kindly look at my signature line -- I know whereof I speak) pose some slightly unusual challenges -- but the general principles are the same.

Dave0176

If it were me I’d be installing two 3” risers into a 4” drop header, and If the boiler is oversized I’d step up to a 5” header and install a two stage gas valve to modulate the flame and keep steam pressure around 10oz. All the radiators need to be balanced and large main vents need to be installed. If you have wet returns and their original I always recommend replacing them because nine out of ten times their clogged.