New steam boiler and radiator issues

dgn

I just had a Burnham IN-7 boiler replaced with same a couple of months ago and only now, after thinking the plumber might have missed a step or two, I did extensive online reading and getting Dan Holohan’s “Lost Art of Steam Heating”. Now I realize there’s probably been several things wrong with my steam heat in the house for the 20+ years I’ve been here.

My hunch was when he said he doesn’t skim new boilers. Once the new boiler started, there was a bit (not a lot) of hammer within the first 10 min. of a cold start whereas there was none with the old boiler. Everywhere I read online said skimming is standard installation procedure.

He kept the previous near boiler piping which I think is decent. Bottom of header is 24” above middle of gauge glass and water line is typically at about ⅓ of gauge glass. Header is a fairly large pipe. However, there is a bullhead tee on the riser from the header but also a main coming off of the riser just before bullhead.

• There are no main vents -- never were. ALL that air in the system is coming out of the radiator vents. There are 2 long mains that run the length of the basement, 22’ and 27’ (the later with a turn). Two more short mains of 5’ and 7’. It can take 20+ minutes for steam to reach 3rd floor radiators and start getting hot.
  
• Wet returns, not flushed by plumber.
  
• There are 18 radiators on 3 floors, mostly 2-pipe but a few are 1-pipe. I told a steam guy I’d met and he didn’t believe I had a mix of both types until I sent him photos. No steam traps, just standard vents on radiators as though they were 1-pipe.
  
• Most all radiator vents don’t shut when radiators have steam. After all air is vented there is then steam coming out of the vents.
  
• The pressuretrol, set to just below 2 psi with a 1 psi differential, never reaches pressure, I’m guessing because of the radiator vents never closing. When there’s a call for heat the boiler will run for a good hour or more even though the radiators are blazing hot before heat call is satisfied.
  

I’m in the process of repacking leaky radiator valves since they were leaking steam.
I think I could skim the boiler myself. Have read and seen YouTube videos.

It seems that there is a need for a knowledgeable plumber to put in main vents. Not sure if they go at the end of each main or need to go before the end. Might also need to replace radiator vents. Not sure how to size them for distance from boiler.

Also, thinking of having a vaporstat put in for finer pressure control and keeping the pressuretrol as backup.

Any thoughts on these issues and the order in which I should address them?
Is it appropriate to ask for a recommendation for an experienced steam plumber in the Boston area?

I’m really enjoying learning about steam here and elsewhere and want to offer my thanks in advance for any response.

New England SteamWorks

I think we'd all enjoy seeing pictures of your new boiler and it's header piping, and anything else you think interesting.

acwagner

As a fellow homeowner with a new boiler as well I recommend skimming first. It's easy to do and boilers do all kinds of weird things when the water is dirty and has oil on the water surface.

Plan on skimming it multiple times over the coming weeks. I've personally skimmed mine 5 separate times over 2 months. It takes time for all the oils and debris to work it's way out of the system.

Jamie Hall

You need main vents. You also need to lower the pressure (0.5 cutin, 1 pound differential). Where your pressure is the vents -- assuming they aren't damaged -- may not be able to close against it. if the pressure was ever much higher, they may simply need to be replaced.

A mix of two pipe and one pipe steam is not unheard of. However, there should not be vents on the two pipe radiators, unless the system is very very old. Can you include in your pictures some of the two pipe radiators and their inlets and outlets? The vents on the two pipe radiators may have been added at a later date to compensate for problems elsewhere -- like no vents on the dry returns.

dgn

OK - here are some photos:
First, near boiler piping, one showing bullhead tee and another the hartford loop perhaps coming in too high. Next, end of one long main w/plug and turn at near end of other long main. Finally, 1- and 2-pipe radiators (mostly tilted toward steam input side).




---------------------


---------------------

acwagner

Get the manual for your boiler. It has a diagram in it showing the minimum pipe diameters and length dimensions for the near boiler piping. Also two general recommended pipe configurations. Compare that to what you have. They did a number of things wrong. I'll the pros outline the specifics, but you'll be able to tell most from the boiler manual.

JUGHNE

It looks like you may have a 2 pipe air vent system. You can confirm this by looking at the return of each radiator, each return might go down and connect individually into a wet return.
This eliminated the need for traps at each rad.

But the books show a main air vent at the end of each steam main before it drops down into the wet return. Somewhere on the end of each steam main may be a plugged fitting where a vent used to be. It could be on the vertical drop above the water line of the wet return.

Each rad and steam drip must drop down below the boiler water line.

Jamie Hall

Ah ha! Those are the very old two pipe system radiators, and they do need an air vent, just as you have them. It's described in the the book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", which is a good read (Amazon, or the store on this web site).

Or take a look at this article, from the history section: https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/two-pipe-air-vent-steam-heating/

Fred

1. What should have been three Mains, individually tied into the Header.
2. The one riser you do have, to the mains is in between the two risers out of the boiler.
3. I can't even tell where the equalizer comes off of the header or if it comes off of the riser. ??
4. The Boiler, especially a Burnham (from my own personal experience) is very sensitive to oils on the surface of the water and must be skimmed, several times.
5. As you mentioned, that Bull headed Tee.
6. No Main venting
7. Boiler water should be at least half way up the glass, more likely 2/3's of the way. Check the manual and see how high the Normal water level should be and actually is from the floor.

JUGHNE

If the new boiler has a lower water line than the old one, then somewhere you may have dry returns that used to be wet.
This could let the steam from one rad return get into the return of another. It could have lost the water trap feature of isolating the rad return from each.

dgn

@acwagner - I do have the manual and the pipe diameters of the installation match those of the manual. Also, the the takeoff from the header to the mains are after the two risers from the boiler and just before the equalizer. Also, the manual shows normal water line at 28 5/8" from base and top of hartford return at 26 5/8" from base. Hartford return is exact. However, water line is about 1/3 up on gauge glass, which is a bit less than 26". That's what LWCO is set for.

dgn

@JUGHNE, yes, each 2-pipe rad drains directly to wet return, both pipes. Also, 2 of my photos show plugs at the end of the 2 long mains. I read that vents should go right at the end, though, but a bit before. Is the end more-or-less ok?

@Jamie%20Hall - I'm only at the beginning of Dan's book that I got out of the library. Haven't gotten to the 2-pipe rad section yet. Ordered my own copy from Amazon. It's a great (but a bit late) education in steam.

@Fred - What looks like a riser to the mains from the header is really at the end, past both risers from the boiler and before the equalizer. Just hard to see in the photos.
Also, I thought water line should be in bottom half of glass. Yet, yes, manual has water line at 28 5/8" from base of boiler which would be at about 2/3 up.

Skimming doesn't seem to be that difficult but may want a pro to reset the LWCO when putting in main vents.

JUGHNE

Considering you had the same boiler to begin with, how well did it perform?

What do you mean by resetting the LWCO, wasn't that a factory install out of the box?

Did they leave you a skim port, doubtful as the installer said he doesn't do it for new boilers.

Certainly find someone in your area to finish/repair what you just paid to have done by someone else.

dgn

@JUGHNE I thought the LWCO was set by the installer, not out of the box. Also, if you look at the Hartford return photo above, you can see just behind it a relief valve coming out probably at the same height of where a skim port would be. I was hoping to just open and use that to skim.

The old boiler performed fine, considering no main vents. Took a long time for steam to come up as it does now only no hammer.

Fred

If the installer put the LWCO/probe in the correct tapping on the boiler, it should not have to be touched. It is there to shut the boiler down if/when the water level gets down to a level that is concerning.

dgn

Whoops, @Fred and @JUGHNE, what I meant is the auto-water feed is set to fill only to 1/3 of the gauge glass. In the old system there was no auto-water feed (just a LWCO) so I had to add manually and always filled to about 2/3 to 3/4 up the glass. I hope that helps to clarify.

acwagner

I skim mine from the pressure relief tapping as well. Works for me. They didn't do you any favors by having the equalizer in the way.

I see now that the header is mostly right. Certainly a unique setup. The one thing I noticed is that exposed 90 degree fitting from the header to the equalizer reduces. Depending how the header is pitched that might be trapping water which could cause hammer and would also effectively reduce the size of your header.

Fred

Yes, @acwagner , that equalizer is reduced on the horizontal. That elbow needs to be turned down and then carried over. The way it is now, it will certainly hold water in the header and cause hammer.

acwagner

Your actual water level doesnt sound right. I have the same dimensions on mine and I believe the water line sits about 2/3 up the site glass. Is your boiler raised off the floor? It looks like there are blocks under it in photo 4.

dgn

@Fred I guess I've been lucky since the old boiler was piped the same way -- they used all the existing near boiler piping except the return on the Hartford which had sprung a leak at the joint -- at the old system never had any hammer. Earlier you suggested that Burnham's can be temperamental with oil so I'm going to skim and see what that does. Will want to bring in a pro for main vent and suggestions for replacing rad vents with what's most appropriate.

How about getting the pressuretrol right? Is it worth having it changed to a vaporstat for better control? Would repacking any leaky rad values and getting good rad vents get the pressure to 2 psi to have pressuretrol shut when rads are full of steam? That way I wouldn't get continuous boiler for so long (1+ hrs) even though the rads are blazing.

dgn

BTW, any suggestions for a good steam pro in the Boston area? There are contractors listed on this site but not specifically steam.

acwagner

Also can one of the pros verify his pressure relief valve is hooked up in the right orientation? Or do they make some that can be mounted like that?

Jamie Hall

Are you sure the pressuretrol is seeing the steam pressure? Pigtail clear? Opening to the boiler clear? Opening in the pressuretrol clear? It should shut off very soon after all the radiators are hot -- unless you are so fortunate as to have the boiler exactly the right size. I really wonder if it is sensing the boiler pressure at all, from your descriptions.

Obviously you should repair any steam leaks. If the steam leaks, you have to add water, and adding more water than absolutely necessary is a short way to kill a boiler. But steam leaks are made much worse by excess pressure.

I would suggest yes, a vapourstat; the 0 to 4 psi variety since you do want to run with a maximum of just over a pound. But. Keep the pressuretrol as a backup, and have it on a completely independent pigtail. Put a 0 to3 psi gauge on the same pigtail as the vapourstat.

I'm not sure that @Charlie from wmass works the Boston area; I have an idea he doesn't. But it would do no harm to ask. I know there are some others in the area, but I can't think who they are at the moment.

Dave0176

Near boiler piping is wrong. The system riser comes off between the boiler risers.

dgn

@acwagner The pipe leading to relief valve do come off the tap horizontally then straight down which I'm pretty sure I read is find for skimming.

@Jamie Hall My assumption is that the pigtail and pressuretrol is new so would, of course, be clear. Maybe I shouldn't make that assumption. Yes, have read elsewhere to keep pressuretrol as backup to vaporstat along with adding the pressure gauge to vaporstat pigtail. And also keep 30 psi gauge 'cuz of code. If you're mentioning the Charles in the contractor section, he's probably a good 2 hrs. west of me so likely out of range.

acwagner

@dgn what I meant by the pressure relief Valve is I believe it needs to be rotated 90 degrees to function properly. One of the pros can verify but I noticed the floor is all wet by the discharge point. Unless that water is from you skimming.

Fred

@dgn I think you said the vents and valves leak. That may be what is keeping the Pressuretol from hitting pressure and shutting the burner down. Get the valves repacked, good radiator vents, like Vent-rite #1's on the radiators and most importantly, get main vents on the mains. A Vaporstat will help you set the pressure lower but a Vaporstat and/or a Pressuretrol is actually a safety device and not a control device unless the boiler is over-sized or you use deep set backs. It concerns me that the boiler runs for an hour +. Does it shut down for short intervals during that time? Go to the "Find a Contractor" tab at the top of this page and enter your zip code. There are several great contractors in the Boston area. As Jamie said, Charlie would be great but I'm not sure he goes to Boston.

Charlie from wmass

@Jamie Hall I work throughout Massachusetts and Connecticut.

JUGHNE

Dgn, you mentioned that you had the install manual.
Do they show a skim port? They might label it a blow off port.
It might be under a jacket knockout.
If you get a steam pro there he could set you up with that.

And I believe many others have mentioned that the pressure relief valve should be mounted vertically not horizontal as yours appears to be.

Also your 2 pipe rads should slope to drain towards the outlet of the rad, usually would be the smaller pipe, the end with the air vent.
That first 1 pipe rad pictured; how well and quietly does/did it heat?

Jamie Hall

Charlie from wmass said:

@Jamie Hall I work throughout Massachusetts and Connecticut.

I thought you did... but I'm never quite sure if the area inside 128 qualifies as Massachusetts, or some sort of province out in space somewhere!

Charlie from wmass

It is another world but I've been vaccinated and I have my passport

Sailah

Hey! I resemble that remark

Charlie from wmass

And the system is my favorite two pipe air vent.

dgn

Not only inside the 128 belt but I live in what's called The People's Republic of Cambridge.

Charlie from wmass

My work visa is valid there

dgn

@acwagner Good spotting the wetness on the floor. Small leak in either steam or return pipe I've yet to locate. On the "to do" list.

@Fred When running for 1+ hours I've yet to see that it shuts down for short periods -- because of reaching pressure is where you're going?

@JUGHNE That 1-pipe in the photo is furthest distance from boiler at the end of the longest main and longest riser. It gets plenty hot and no hammer.

BTW, thanks all for chiming in on this thread. So much appreciated.

Sailah

> @dgn said:
> Not only inside the 128 belt but I live in what's called The People's Republic of Cambridge.

I was just there last night at Venture Cafe. I decided I wasn't hipster enough to go to those events anymore.

Actually that's not true I really enjoyed it, lots of super smart people in the room. And not a single one knew what a steam trap was

dgn

Definitely not all hipsters, @Sailah. My son would consider me the opposite. Yup, plenty of brains around here but not many into fixing stuff. I've been call Mr. Fixit by some but mostly lacking in plumbing know-how (which I'm now trying to remedy).