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Vibrating/Humming Pipes via Taco Circulator Pump

WizardGygax
WizardGygax Member Posts: 7
I need your help securing a pipe to eliminate vibration in my apartment. I've attached a gallery of images to help. The pipe is vibrating from a Taco Cartridge Circulator Model 0011-F4 and creating a hum in the wall of the apartment. The vibration sounds like the hum of a florescent light, not loud, but steady 24/7 humming. How can I secure the pipes adequately to dampen the vibrations? I've looked at pipe clamps on the home improvement websites, but none seem to specifically tackle vibrations. And if they do, they require attachment that might be difficult for me to install given the layout.

Link to gallery:
https://imgur.com/a/Xznm7

I already purchased some anti-vibration rubber and tried to wedge it in all the places the pipes were touching. That seemed to help very little. Pulling the pipe going into the wall down with my hands reduces the noise some. I think I need to somehow clamp the pipe far more securely. Right now they are loose and you can shake them about. Perhaps I could cut my own vibration rubber into strips to attempt to line a hanger of some kind?

Obviously you are professionals and you'd recommend fixing the pump (Called Taco tech support; they recommended repair solutions) or doing all kinds of great things, but how can I try to help myself here? Management has refused to help, citing the pump is operating normally.

If you know any specific hangers or clamps that I can purchase easily, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you in advance!

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,437
    If the pump is transmitting the humming through the pipes -- they are rigid copper? -- just clamping and isolating the pipes from everything else it may not help much.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • WizardGygax
    WizardGygax Member Posts: 7

    If the pump is transmitting the humming through the pipes -- they are rigid copper? -- just clamping and isolating the pipes from everything else it may not help much.

    Yes, they are rigid copper.

    I was hopeful someone has been able to fix a similar problem. When I use Google to search all I can find are instructions for periodic banging pipes, not one ringing/humming 24/7.
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    It may be pumping too fast. When my viridian revs up on the start cycle you can hear it hum in the pipes. But when it runs cycle you cannot hear it
  • WizardGygax
    WizardGygax Member Posts: 7
    Leon82 said:

    It may be pumping too fast. When my viridian revs up on the start cycle you can hear it hum in the pipes. But when it runs cycle you cannot hear it

    That's good to know. Unfortunately, the repairman that came out insisted the pump was functioning properly. Keep in mind, you could hear the pump vibrating off the wall and down the hallway a good 80 feet away. What he did was hammer a hole into the wall where the pump was touching and it reduced the noise around the pump. But it's still vibrating, of course, and thus the pipe hum is exactly the same in our unit. He didn't even check with me after to see if there was any change.

    It's a frustrating situation. Thus I'm on the internet asking you experts here for any solutions so my girlfriend and I can avoid breaking our lease and the expense of moving in the middle of winter.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,437
    If it is pumping too fast -- which is quite possible -- it isn't because something is wrong with the pump (although it could be the wrong pump for the job), but rather something with the whole setup.

    Usually when a noise or vibration is transmitted through a pipe, and one can't eliminate the source for one reason or another, the only solution is to install a flexible connection on the pipe which won't transmit the vibration. In a rental this may be hard to do...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • How long have you noticed the noise - or did it just start? Harmonics are sometimes extremely difficult to trace - how was it confirmed it's the circulator? Has someone turned it off and the noise stopped?

    Sorry for the seemingly "stupid questions" but before we start replacing stuff it's good to zero in on the exact cause as much as possible...
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,192
    The electric flex going to that pump looks to have a solid coat of paint on it. Almost to the point of being steel pipe.
    You might try flexing that to break some paint off and see if it changes anything. Just a long shot, but stranger things have happened.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,566
    Could be you have more pump than you need also, how was the pump sized?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • WizardGygax
    WizardGygax Member Posts: 7

    How long have you noticed the noise - or did it just start? Harmonics are sometimes extremely difficult to trace - how was it confirmed it's the circulator? Has someone turned it off and the noise stopped?

    Sorry for the seemingly "stupid questions" but before we start replacing stuff it's good to zero in on the exact cause as much as possible...

    Hi Steve, thanks for your reply.

    The noise is only present when the boiler and pump have been active. The heat was intermittent in early September, thus we were able to deduce it was related to that. Since the heat has been on in the building consistently, it is 24/7.

    The noise is loudest directly at the spot the pipes enter into our apartment. The pipes run the length of the wall and subsequently so does the noise. It's a hum in the wall running along the exact spot the pipes would be.

    The only thing we can perceive to be causing this hum is the circulator pump that is shaking very slightly, but enough to create resonance along the pipes. You can hear and feel the vibrations, albeit slight. The volume is comparable to a florescent light hum.

    Ultimately the management company's repair crew has claimed this is not a problem (despite the fact our apartment hums) and so I'm searching for solutions I can find. More specifically, if I can dampen the vibrations with hangers or clamps that I can install on my own, since I have access to the pipes in the utility room.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,437
    Sorry about this, but most rotating elements -- such as a pump -- vibrate very very slightly. If they are rigidly connected to something -- such as a pipe -- which can transmit the sound it will. And sometimes the only cure is a flexible connection.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,566
    Occasionally debris gets caught in the impeller and throws them out of balance, teflon tape, copper or steel pipe shavings, rust particles, etc. You may need to remove the pump from the body and check the impeller.

    The higher rpm type of circulators are more prone to telling you when they are out of balance.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,471
    A vibration isolating pipe hanger might help a bit. I don't think it will fix the problem because the pipe is tight to drywall and probably framing where it goes through the wall.

    The 0011 is a very robust circulator to be attached to 1" pipe. It is likely pushing more than twice the recommended (or needed) velocity. Your noise could be velocity or the groaning of circulator that is incorrect for the application.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • SeymourCates
    SeymourCates Member Posts: 162
    @WizardGygax

    You can fix that issue, without determining the exact cause by adding mass to the piping system. Find some suitable steel bars and securely tape or rigidly strap them to the piping. You want to add about 10 lb. to the assembly. This will prevent the acceleration of the piping which is generating the noise.

    Sure, you can probably install a smaller circulator at additional cost, but the additional mass will solve the current problem at minimal cost.

    The final alternative, which does not look feasible, is to somehow secure the piping to something with tremendous mass (like the building).
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,566
    Zman said:

    A vibration isolating pipe hanger might help a bit. I don't think it will fix the problem because the pipe is tight to drywall and probably framing where it goes through the wall.

    The 0011 is a very robust circulator to be attached to 1" pipe. It is likely pushing more than twice the recommended (or needed) velocity. Your noise could be velocity or the groaning of circulator that is incorrect for the application.

    I suspected the same, looks like a lot of pump for the piping and boiler we see in the pic.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,471

    @WizardGygax

    You can fix that issue, without determining the exact cause by adding mass to the piping system. Find some suitable steel bars and securely tape or rigidly strap them to the piping. You want to add about 10 lb. to the assembly. This will prevent the acceleration of the piping which is generating the noise.

    Sure, you can probably install a smaller circulator at additional cost, but the additional mass will solve the current problem at minimal cost.

    The final alternative, which does not look feasible, is to somehow secure the piping to something with tremendous mass (like the building).

    I am going to go ahead and ,em, disagree with this.
    Oversized circs eat pipes, waste energy, cost more and don't last very long.

    If the OP installs a correctly sized ECM circ, the system will run quieter and cost less to run. Putting weights on it may make it quieter but is just plain silly and unprofessional. Strapping it to the building will just change the pitch of the noise.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    DZoro
  • WizardGygax
    WizardGygax Member Posts: 7

    @WizardGygax

    You can fix that issue, without determining the exact cause by adding mass to the piping system. Find some suitable steel bars and securely tape or rigidly strap them to the piping. You want to add about 10 lb. to the assembly. This will prevent the acceleration of the piping which is generating the noise.

    Sure, you can probably install a smaller circulator at additional cost, but the additional mass will solve the current problem at minimal cost.

    The final alternative, which does not look feasible, is to somehow secure the piping to something with tremendous mass (like the building).

    Thank you for this recommendation. Can you describe specifically how I might affix the weight to the piping? Where I should be putting it? Near the pump? Running horizontal/vertical? My photos from the first post detail the piping setup.
  • WizardGygax
    WizardGygax Member Posts: 7
    Zman said:

    @WizardGygax

    You can fix that issue, without determining the exact cause by adding mass to the piping system. Find some suitable steel bars and securely tape or rigidly strap them to the piping. You want to add about 10 lb. to the assembly. This will prevent the acceleration of the piping which is generating the noise.

    Sure, you can probably install a smaller circulator at additional cost, but the additional mass will solve the current problem at minimal cost.

    The final alternative, which does not look feasible, is to somehow secure the piping to something with tremendous mass (like the building).

    I am going to go ahead and ,em, disagree with this.
    Oversized circs eat pipes, waste energy, cost more and don't last very long.

    If the OP installs a correctly sized ECM circ, the system will run quieter and cost less to run. Putting weights on it may make it quieter but is just plain silly and unprofessional. Strapping it to the building will just change the pitch of the noise.
    Unfortunately, the property company says everything is running great, so installing new equipment isn't an option. I agree I wish this was being handled more professionally.

    So I want it to run quieter even if it's silly and unprofessional! We just want to survive the winter by reducing the noise.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,566
    Weight is not going to solve an out of balance circulator, or one that is running off it's curve.

    It needs to be confirmed that it is sized properly, and removed and inspected. It should run virtually silent.

    Any other fix is just a bandaid for a more serious problem, I suppose.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • How about this... I arrange to have a 0011 cartridge (the complete rotating assy including impeller) sent to your attention no charge. You get it to the maintenance folks for them to install (requires draining the pump). The part number is 0011-009RP. Or, we'll replace the complete circ no charge (although is likely oversized).

    I can get you product, just can't get it installed for you.
    JUGHNEWizardGygaxDZoroZman
  • WizardGygax
    WizardGygax Member Posts: 7
    edited December 2017

    How about this... I arrange to have a 0011 cartridge (the complete rotating assy including impeller) sent to your attention no charge. You get it to the maintenance folks for them to install (requires draining the pump). The part number is 0011-009RP. Or, we'll replace the complete circ no charge (although is likely oversized).

    I can get you product, just can't get it installed for you.

    This is an extremely generous offer. I will attempt to pass it along to my management company. Thank you so much.

    Is there any information should I pass along to the maintenance guy regarding a possible oversized pump?
  • We can offer a ECM self sensing circ of the same size that will slow down based on the flow and load demand but I don't want to be responsible for messing up the system that has been heating properly (I assume). For sure this would 100% eliminate the possibility of oversizing.

    If the management company is concerned about setting this "smart" pump up we can hook them up with our local rep or they can contact me directly at (401) 441-2934.

    I feel your pain about the noise - some might not see it as a big problem but clearly you want to get rid of it and it is bothering you. Solutions are there - just need to the way to "get er done".
    Zman
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