114 year old Theater in NYC

misterheat

I work in a 114 year Broadway theater in NYC and have been exploring its steam system . I was curious what the square box Is ,and what it does ?My guess is something to do with condensate? Thanks

Ironman

A float and thermostatic trap.

misterheat

Thanks, so when the float opens is it steam pressure that allows the condensate to go up that little pipe against gravity? That is a condensate return line?

Steamhead

This trap lets the condensate drain out of the steam main so it doesn't bang. Also vents some of the air in the main.

It's not installed properly. The lower pipe should not pop up like that- it should slope down.

This may be a good place for an inline F&T trap. Or, one could lower the return line the trap discharges into if that's possible.

misterheat

Thanks . The system here is huge. I'm going to take a thermal image of the 2 original giant radiators on the back wall that heats the main stage area that is 90 feet tall x 60 feet wide x 40 feet deep. We have a group of building engineers and sometimes when I ask steam questions they look puzzled. So im not surprised its wrong. We do experience loud banging through out the building. Thanks agian

Steamhead

It shouldn't bang at all. There are plenty of Steam Men in the NYC area- you can find them on the site's Find a Contractor page.

eolvc

I have no idea but I think you should go with @Steamhead

MilanD

It's quite possible this was a loop seal and ft trap is installed backwards - thus really doing nothing. But it's doing nothing as is too.

Steamhead

eolvc said:

I have no idea but I think you should go with @Steamhead

I'm in Baltimore so the travel time would be a bit much.

Sailah

More specifically it's a Hoffman FT015H 3/4"? Float and Thermostatic trap. Depending on the pressure it should have no problem pushing the condensate back uphill but as it was stated, always better to let gravity assist.

Sure looks like its dripping that leg.

You can test if it's working by shutting off the white handled valve, and then removing the plug I think is in the yellow handled valve pointed down. Open that yellow handled valve slowly, a bunch of water will drain FYI. All F&T traps should have a waterseal on the float mechanism. So after the water has drained out, if you see any amount of steam other than flash, something isn't right on the trap.

Once you're done testing, close yellow valve, replace plug, and slowly open white handled valve.

misterheat

One more question. This is the top of that same big steam line. What is the red box on top ?

JUGHNE

Is the tin box on top of that connected to the red box?
Perhaps a motorized zone valve?

JohnNY

I work on the repair and maintenance of NYC steam systems all day long whether I like it or not.
Then on Monday and Wednesday nights I teach a class about steam and hydronic heating to HVAC students at this place:


Here: www.GatewayPlumbing.com
and here: www.72fLLc.com

JUGHNE

I would sure contact JohnNY.........as long as he promises to post pictures of the system.

misterheat

i wish i had the ability to hire someone . i work for a big organization with 17 Broadway theaters they have engineers . So i'm walking around the theater learning . I don't dare mess with there stuff . I was trying to figure out some of the loud steam hammering because inevitably the shows always complain to me the house carpenter about it . i appreciate all the knowledge here . i'm gonna snap some pictures of all the old stuff here and post when i have a shot .

EBEBRATT-Ed

@misterheat said:

" We have a group of building engineers and sometimes when I ask steam questions they look puzzled"

And that is a problem. Not many engineers left that know anything about steam. The ones that do know steam are working in the industrial or manufacturing side of the business and not on steam heated buildings.

Both @JohnNY and @Danny Scully can fix you up if only you can make the "engineers" listen........good luck with that

Danny Scully

I work with @misterheat at his personal residence. Unfortunately, we don’t service the city. More to the point, however, @misterheat is just looking to expand his knowledge with this post. As he said, he’s not in a position to hire someone. He’s just an interested student of steam

misterheat

Found a copy of ARCOs The Ideal Fitter 1913 edition. Still has the dead man's finger prints on it.

misterheat

Found a copy of ARCOs The Ideal Fitter. 1913 edition. Still has the dead man's finger prints all over it

misterheat

Infrared shot of one of the back wall set ups. Those are 21 'runs of schedule 40 .

Dale_3

@misterheat Keep the pictures and info coming. That would be an awesome place to walk through.

R Dougan

Okay, first off - wow, that’s a honker of a radiator,

Lets see,… 2 racks , 10 pipes each, 21’ of 1 ½” >>> that’s 420 ft plus the few feet that go horizontal on the left hand unit … say maybe another 3’ x 10 (guess-tamate). All tallied 450’.

So, 450’ at 173 btu per lineal ft. (see chart) = 77,850 btu.

That’s a 324 EDR radiator equivalent. (at 3' per section, that would be 108 section radiator) Again, ...wow.

Even if the pipe is 1 ¼ , its still 285 EDR. I bet its pretty toasty next to that baby.

misterheat

There is a second array on the same wall on the other side that is the exact same set up . So double that btu number. I've been searching the building and trying to figure out where the original boiler would have been. No luck. It was built in 1907 im assuming that was before con ed supplied steam...would any one know if that is true? Around when did con ed come about?