Steam Pipe Leak in Ceiling

MilanD

Do you have a small radiator somewhere you can swap it with just to test it? If it still bangs, then you'll know it's the valve. I'm thinking water pooling at the front of the radiator or getting hung up on the valve... Take off the rad and look into the vent and into the rad. Is the bottom of the spud flush with the bottom of the inside of the rad? How wide open is the disk inside the valve?

Man, that's frustrating...

wildrage

Wouldn't surprise me if something was FUBARed with the radiator. I still need to try to take the valve apart to be sure it's functioning correctly. Some have said that it could be that it isn't really opening all the way, so steam can creep in, but water can not get out. If I don't get a chance this afternoon, it will have to wait until after Thanksgiving, unfortunately. I do not have a spare radiator - I keep on seeing them at the local auction house for like $100. I should pick up a spare next time I see a pretty one.

Fred

It does sound like it's in the radiator. I'm thinking you need to take that coupling loose (I bet water will come out when you do so have a few towels handy), pull the radiator back and take a look inside. I'm kinda thinking that there is crud in the bottom of that radiator that has washed towards the valve and created a dam, causing water to pool in the bottom of the radiator. May have happened when they shifted it around fixing that ceiling leak last time. At the same time you can take a look at the disc in the valve.
Turning the vent upside down should have prevented air from escaping and kept the radiator cold but I'm not that familiar with the Maid-O-Mist vents. I prefer the Hoffman or Vent-Rite.

wildrage

Fred said:

It does sound like it's in the radiator. I'm thinking you need to take that coupling loose (I bet water will come out when you do so have a few towels handy), pull the radiator back and take a look inside. I'm kinda thinking that there is crud in the bottom of that radiator that has washed towards the valve and created a dam, causing water to pool in the bottom of the radiator. May have happened when they shifted it around fixing that ceiling leak last time. At the same time you can take a look at the disc in the valve.
Turning the vent upside down should have prevented air from escaping and kept the radiator cold but I'm not that familiar with the Maid-O-Mist vents. I prefer the Hoffman or Vent-Rite.

Thanks. This radiator has always given me a problem, from the day I moved in 2 years ago. I get little pings from other radiators, and a riser once in a while, which I consider more or less normal. This guy - always a bang. Quick related story:

I had closed on the house at noon in November, and insisted on spending my first night there alone. For others not paying attention to this feed, this is a 110 year old victorian house that looks like the house from Clue. 8 bedrooms, 8 bathrooms, maids quarters, the whole shebbang. So anyway, at around 3pm I hear a clanging. I try to ignore it. Then I hear a steady clanging, like a baseball bat against a fence. I think to myself "Crap, i can't ignore this". I pick up my Glock and start walking down the hall...towards the bathroom....and almost shoot the radiator (the same one in question).

Ufortunatley, I may not be able to tackle this until Friday . I'll see if I have the time this afternoon...then heading to the folks tonight for thanksgiving.

Jamie Hall

Ah. Now wait a minute. It's always from that radiator? And always when it starts up? Is it even remotely possible that it isn't a water hammer at all, but an expansion noise? They can be surprisingly loud, and tend to be repetitive -- but only until the radiator heats up.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Get the Glock and shoot it!

acwagner

My eye isn't nearly as calibrated as the pros, and perhaps you already stated this information, but what is the EDR of that radiator and the size of the pipe/valve? It's remote, but It's possible the valve is too small for the EDR of that radiator.

Fred

Let's try one more test. Cut a small piece of plastic milk carton and put a slice under each radiator foot. It is possible that, over the years, the expansion and contraction has worn a divet into the floor tiles and the radiator can't slide as it heats up and expands, causing the radiator to make that noise. The plastic will allow the radiator to slide.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I agree with @acwagner , check the EDR of the radiator against the pipe and valve size.

Also, @Fred's idea with the milk bottle is worth a try

MilanD

Won't a bigger rad just heat slower, that is, won't heat to its capacity? Point of a bigger riser diameter is to be able to deliver enough steam for the rad load. If the pipe is smaller, large rad will not heat all the way. No?

Check the valve and check inside radiator spud for blockage (mounding, a dam of sorts) that will keep water inside the bottom of rad from draining.

Fred

@MilanD , On a one pipe system, a pipe is sized for both the volume of steam needed to fill the radiator and also enough room for condensate to be able to return, in the opposite direction.
If I see correctly, @wildrage 's supply looks like inch and a quarter. Should be fine for what looks like about a 40 to 50 EDR radiator.

MilanD

@Fred I see what you mean and know the load/condensate return and need for the correct pipe diameter I'm trying to think like steam here... thanks for clarifying.

Smaller pipe has a limit on the steam volume it can carry while letting the condensate go in opposite direction. That's why 2 pipe systems can have smaller feed risers and smaller returns too. Right? Steam and condensate don't have to use the same pipe.

On this bath rad, looks like a 30-40 EDR rad so 1-1/4" pipe should work. Even 1" should work. It's also pitched fine.

We are getting closer to cause of banging. Valve or water pooling in the rad due to some kind of o obstruction on the spud or just inside the rad. Could be 100 years of rust and debris now sitting there.

Fred

1" pipe might not work. I think, on a one pipe system, 1" is rated for up to 25 EDR. I'm pretty sure his pipe is 1-1/4 so it definitely should be fine for 40 to 50 EDR.

acwagner

I was thinking it was 1" diameter based on one of the photos. In LAOSH, Dan's table shows 1" valve is good up to 20 EDR and 1.25" good up to 55 EDR. @Fred is probably right on the radiator size and valve size and it's not the issue. Just thought I'd throw it out there since it's all hands on deck on this one. @wildrage can you double check the sizes to be sure?

RomanGK_26986764589

That looks like 1" pipe and valve. The radiator itself is about 28-30 EDR.

wildrage

@Fred @MilanD @acwagner @EBEBRATT-Ed @Jamie Hall

Thanks so much for sticking with me through this journey lol.

I removed the radiator and have pics below. Unfortunately, no smoking gun here - unless I'm missing something (pros, please look). I will say that when I attempted to drain the radiator, I'd say 2-3 cups of water came out. I'm not sure if that's regular or not.

As for the noise, it sounds pretty loud. Some other radiators give a little ticking - sort of like a car when you turn it off. I always assumed that was expansion. This sounds much louder. I noticed that you can hear it pretty well from the 3rd floor as well (the radiator that is next up on the T). The noise is clearly coming from below, while listening from the 3rd floor.

wildrage

...and another question. Could the pipe leading to the valve be too high? It sort of seemed a bit high when I was connecting the valve. To experiment, I put 2 washers on the valve side of the radiator and 4 in the back....or is this a waste of time?

acwagner

@wildrage what is the size of that pipe coming out of the floor-- 1" or 1.25" diameter pipe?

wildrage

crap i meant to measure it when i had it apart. sorry i'm not great at plumbing, so can't eyeball it. i'll grab a measuring tape and check in a little bit.

wildrage

not sure if this means anything, but i've never actually stood at the radiator to see when it heats up. From when the thermostat calls for heat, it takes about 7 minutes for the first radiator to heat up. It takes a full 10-15 mins after that for this radiator to heat up. Seems to be the last radiator to get steam.

Also, it didn't hammer this time. Perhaps because I drained all the water out of it? I'm going to let the system cool down, then force another cycle via the thermostat to see what happens.

Fred

There is a trough in the radiators to hold rust and any crap. They will hold some water. I'm still wondering if it is hammer or if it is the radiator expanding and trying to drag across that ceramic floor tile. I wonder if putting it up on those washers helped. Did you try the plastic strips under each foot to help the radiator slide during expansion?
You know banging will radiate through pipes. Is there a Radiator connected to that riser, below this one? Have you listened from there or from the basement?

wildrage

> @Fred said:
> There is a trough in the radiators to hold rust and any crap. They will hold some water. I'm still wondering if it is hammer or if it is the radiator expanding and trying to drag across that ceramic floor tile. I wonder if putting it up on those washers helped. Did you try the plastic strips under each foot to help the radiator slide during expansion?
> You know banging will radiate through pipes. Is there a Radiator connected to that riser, below this one? Have you listened from there or from the basement?

There is a radiator above on the 3rd floor, none below. I just started a cycle up so we will see. I forgot to mention that I had also installed an older vent on it too. The radiator did not get fully hot (maybe 2/3). Maybe it was just a venting issue and I need something in between.

wildrage

Here's the ancient vent that I installed. Blowing through one end, air passed through, but it was very restricted. It also has one of those elbows that extend out into the radiator.

Fred

Don't vent your radiators based on getting them hot all the way across, especially on a single heating cycle. The length of the heating cycle will do that. Vent them so that all of your radiators heat within a few minutes of each other and each room is comfortable for you. On design days, (especially cold day) the boiler will run longer and the radiators may heat all the way across, if the boiler runs long enough before the Thermostat is satisfied.

wildrage

Hmm...the rest come up pretty darn quickly, and this one comes up dead last.

I didn't major in fluid dynamics or whatever, but if there is a T, and a radiator above it, which one should get hot first? The one on top, or the one on the bottom? Perhaps the one with the biggest vent? Which one would heat if all vents / physics were identical? If 2 trains were travelling at the same speed away from eachother....just kidding

wildrage

Also, is it normal to hear the steam 'swooshing' up the valve to the radiator? Sounds almost like water rushing, in an almost pulsating sort of way.

Also, I'm still getting a hammer, but much much lighter. Where it sounded like a metal baseball bat hitting the radiator before, it now sounds like a butter knife. Still though, it's almost a full 20 minutes between when the first radiator is fully hot, and when this one is fully hot. Entire radiator now getting hot.

acwagner

No, it shouldn't make "swooshing" sounds. That means there is water getting pushed around by the steam.

You said that when you disconnected the radiator the valve and pipe bounced up some and wasn't lined up? It's possible that pipe isn't pitched enough. If the pipe is still exposed below, put a level on it and see if it's pitched. Also, check the pipe size.

wildrage

@acwagner thanks for the response.

Pipe is still exposed...there's no way I'm closing the ceiling until this is fixed for sure. Heck, I may never close the ceiling just in case at this point .

I need a smaller level - can't get mine up in that tight space. By eyeballing it, however, it looks like there is a very obvious pitch from elbow to the tee. I'd guess that that over the full length of pipe to the tee (3 feet), there is a good 1" of pitch. Images can be deceiving, but there's one for the hell of it. If you notice the line of asbestos insulation on the joist above the pipe, it gets bigger as the pipe goes towards the Tee.

Fred

It looks like there is decent pitch in that pipe but if you are hearing a swooshing or huffing sound, there is water somewhere that can't get out. Did you measure the diameter of that pipe? It is very, very possible that, if that pipe also feeds a radiator on the floor above it, that it is too small to supply both radiators and allow water to return, until the heat cycle has ended. Turn the third floor radiator off or turn the vent upside down and see if the sounds go away. If they do, pipe size is your culprit. Try to vent both radiators more slowly and see if that resolves the noise. Less steam getting into each radiator = less condensate, maybe enough room in that pipe for both the steam and the returning water. If doing this fixes the problem but you don't have enough heat in both locations, you may have to run a separate riser to one of those radiators. Probably easier to run a riser to thee second floor now that the ceiling is open, Then cap the horizontal pipe off and leave it in the ceiling and let the existing riser feed just the third floor.

Kahooli

Merchant coupling with no taper?

wildrage

Fred said:

It looks like there is decent pitch in that pipe but if you are hearing a swooshing or huffing sound, there is water somewhere that can't get out. Did you measure the diameter of that pipe? It is very, very possible that, if that pipe also feeds a radiator on the floor above it, that it is too small to supply both radiators and allow water to return, until the heat cycle has ended. Turn the third floor radiator off or turn the vent upside down and see if the sounds go away. If they do, pipe size is your culprit. Try to vent both radiators more slowly and see if that resolves the noise. Less steam getting into each radiator = less condensate, maybe enough room in that pipe for both the steam and the returning water. If doing this fixes the problem but you don't have enough heat in both locations, you may have to run a separate riser to one of those radiators. Probably easier to run a riser to thee second floor now that the ceiling is open, Then cap the horizontal pipe off and leave it in the ceiling and let the existing riser feed just the third floor.

Ugh. That doesn't sound fun at all.

Radiator pipe is 1.25" and riser is 1.75"

acwagner

Are those the outside diameter pipe dimensions?

Fred

@wildrage said: Ugh. That doesn't sound fun at all.

Radiator pipe is 1.25" and riser is 1.75"

I thought it looked like 1.25" to me but others thought it may only be 1". You should be fine on that riser and that run-out. I am still thinking you have the third floor radiator vented so fast that the steam is rushing up to it and causing two problems:
1. it is robbing the second floor radiator of steam until the 3rd floor radiator is full, making the second floor the last one to heat.
2. I still suspect the fast steam flow to the 3rd floor may be not letting water out of the 2nd floor run out until the 3rd floor is hot and then the steam pushes into that second floor run-out that now has some water stacked up in it. Try slowing the venting on the 3rd floor down enough that both radiators start to heat at about the same time and I bet the banging will disappear. You might be wise to buy one or two Vent-rite #1's or a Hoffman 1A.. Those are both adjustable vents and you can tune them down rather than keep replacing them with smaller vents. I would suggest the Vent-Rite, only because it seems like the new Hoffman's tend to click when they open and close. I use Hoffmans because it doesn't bother me and I can tell the vent is working but it tends to get on some people's nerves. The clicking goes away after a few months of operation.

wildrage

acwagner said:

Are those the outside diameter pipe dimensions?

So I had to remember 7th grade geometry. I took the circumference of the pipe and divided by pi. That's the way to do it, right?

wildrage

Fred said:

@wildrage said: Ugh. That doesn't sound fun at all.

Radiator pipe is 1.25" and riser is 1.75"

I thought it looked like 1.25" to me but others thought it may only be 1". You should be fine on that riser and that run-out. I am still thinking you have the third floor radiator vented so fast that the steam is rushing up to it and causing two problems:
1. it is robbing the second floor radiator of steam until the 3rd floor radiator is full, making the second floor the last one to heat.
2. I still suspect the fast steam flow to the 3rd floor may be not letting water out of the 2nd floor run out until the 3rd floor is hot and then the steam pushes into that second floor run-out that now has some water stacked up in it. Try slowing the venting on the 3rd floor down enough that both radiators start to heat at about the same time and I bet the banging will disappear. You might be wise to buy one or two Vent-rite #1's or a Hoffman 1A.. Those are both adjustable vents and you can tune them down rather than keep replacing them with smaller vents. I would suggest the Vent-Rite, only because it seems like the new Hoffman's tend to click when they open and close. I use Hoffmans because it doesn't bother me and I can tell the vent is working but it tends to get on some people's nerves. The clicking goes away after a few months of operation.

Hmm...I think early on, when I first bought the house, I had read that the more venting the better, and I *may* have put a bunch of gigantic vents on the 3rd floor. The 3rd floor is an old maid's quarters and I literally only go up there once a week to flush the toilets so that the cast iron drains don't crack. I'll try putting a smaller vent on the one above it.

Now that several cycles have ran, I've found with the smaller vent on the 2nd floor radiator, the hammering as almost completely stopped. I have also noticed that the radiator also does not get completely hot every cycle....but when it does get completely hot, it still doesn't bang...just slightly ticks.

I can also verify that the 3rd floor radiator on the tee gets hot faster, and every time. A Maid-O-Mist 40M is installed.

maid-o-mist.com/vrsvents.html#40m

Fred

What you probably read is that Mains should be vented fast. Radiators should be vented slowly, and should be vented at a rate that allows virtually every radiator to heat within minutes of each other. They don't have to and shouldn't heat all the way across unless it is very, very cold outside. Most old homes are over radiated anyway and some so much so that the radiators never heat all the way across. Radiator vents should be adjusted based on the length and size of the radiator run-out and the size of the radiator but never as fast as you can vent them. The goal is to get steam to each radiator with as even a distribution as possible.
I'm going to bet that if you make no change to that 3rd floor vent, as soon as that trough you emptied in the second floor fills back up, the banging will start again. Emptying that trough just gave you a little buffer until it fills again.

wildrage

Fred said:

@wildrage said: Ugh. That doesn't sound fun at all.

Radiator pipe is 1.25" and riser is 1.75"

I thought it looked like 1.25" to me but others thought it may only be 1". You should be fine on that riser and that run-out. I am still thinking you have the third floor radiator vented so fast that the steam is rushing up to it and causing two problems:
1. it is robbing the second floor radiator of steam until the 3rd floor radiator is full, making the second floor the last one to heat.
2. I still suspect the fast steam flow to the 3rd floor may be not letting water out of the 2nd floor run out until the 3rd floor is hot and then the steam pushes into that second floor run-out that now has some water stacked up in it. Try slowing the venting on the 3rd floor down enough that both radiators start to heat at about the same time and I bet the banging will disappear. You might be wise to buy one or two Vent-rite #1's or a Hoffman 1A.. Those are both adjustable vents and you can tune them down rather than keep replacing them with smaller vents. I would suggest the Vent-Rite, only because it seems like the new Hoffman's tend to click when they open and close. I use Hoffmans because it doesn't bother me and I can tell the vent is working but it tends to get on some people's nerves. The clicking goes away after a few months of operation.

Ugh I just lost an entire post that I wrote.

Upstairs (3rd floor) is an old maids quarters that I don't really use. I checked and there's a Maid O Mist 40-M installed. I replaced all vents when I moved in...I probably just should have kept what was there.
maid-o-mist.com/vrsvents.html#40m

With that smaller vent on the problem radiator (2nd floor), it doesn't get hot all the time, but there's no more banging...just a minor clicking. When it does get totally hot, it still doesn't make any loud noises. FYI the radiator on 3rd floor appears to be slightly smaller, if not the same size as the problem radiator below it.

I verified that the other radiator on the tee, on the 3rd floor, heats up hot every time.

wildrage

Fred said:

What you probably read is that Mains should be vented fast. Radiators should be vented slowly, and should be vented at a rate that allows virtually every radiator to heat within minutes of each other. They don't have to and shouldn't heat all the way across unless it is very, very cold outside. Most old homes are over radiated anyway and some so much so that the radiators never heat all the way across. Radiator vents should be adjusted based on the length and size of the radiator run-out and the size of the radiator but never as fast as you can vent them. The goal is to get steam to each radiator with as even a distribution as possible.
I'm going to bet that if you make no change to that 3rd floor vent, as soon as that trough you emptied in the second floor fills back up, the banging will start again. Emptying that trough just gave you a little buffer until it fills again.

Sorry, I was editing my last post after doing some investigating, and I inadvertently deleted it, while you were responding. The 3rd floor radiator has a Maid-O-Mist 40-M on it.

maid-o-mist.com/vrsvents.html#40m

Fred

What you probably read is that Mains should be vented fast. Radiators should be vented slowly, and should be vented at a rate that allows virtually every radiator to heat within minutes of each other. They don't have to and shouldn't heat all the way across unless it is very, very cold outside. Most old homes are over radiated anyway and some so much so that the radiators never heat all the way across. Radiator vents should be adjusted based on the length and size of the radiator run-out and the size of the radiator but never as fast as you can vent them. The goal is to get steam to each radiator with as even a distribution as possible.
I'm going to bet that if you make no change to that 3rd floor vent, as soon as that trough you emptied in the second floor fills back up, the banging will start again. Emptying that trough just gave you a little buffer until it fills again.

wildrage

Fred said:

I'm going to bet that if you make no change to that 3rd floor vent, as soon as that trough you emptied in the second floor fills back up, the banging will start again. Emptying that trough just gave you a little buffer until it fills again.

So how do I avoid? Smaller vents all around?