0-10v circulator pump

Paul S_3

I'm trying to find a 0-10v variable speed circulator pump for a lochnivar KHN boiler loop pump...... I cannot seem to find one online. Has anyone use this feature on this boiler. The pump will be receiving the signal and adjust its speed with the firing rate. Thank you Paul S

Leon82

I'm waiting too. I think they will come soon. At least the ones similar in cost to the viridian pumps.

The current ones aren't ecm as far as I know

hot_rod

You can still find the Grundfos 15-42 and 26-64 VS out there. I think they have been discontinued. They are a 0-10, but not ECM.

ratio

Perhaps one of these would help? They've come up on the Wall a few times in the past.

I've also given serious thought to a 3 Φ circulator powered by a cheap Chinese VFD, but that's on a 2½" radiant loop with a big ole B&G on it.

Leon82

> @ratio said:
> Perhaps one of these would help? They've come up on the Wall a few times in the past.I've also given serious thought to a 3 Φ circulator powered by a cheap Chinese VFD, but that's on a 2½" radiant loop with a big ole B&G on it.

I also saw that come up to but I feel it's a better investment to wait till the ecm version is available.

I currently use the 1816 as my primary and have turned it down on fixed speed as far as I can before it clicks over to constant pressure mode.

mikeg2015

I'm thinking it's meant more for using a 3 phase pump with a VFD in a commercial application.

mikeg2015

.. would be easier to just have pump run to a pressure drop setpoint, boiler runs to a preset delta T.

temperature reset to valve position or outdoor air.

Pidge

@ Paul S

On 7/30/17 I sent the following to supplyhouse.com:

"Will your Grundfos UF 26-96 F (SKU 52722341) act as a variable speed pump when used with your Lochnivar Knight Boiler SKU KHN085?

The Grundfos UF 26-96 F is referred to as a variable speed pump on page 39, figure 6-3 of your Lochnivar Knight KHN series boiler Installation & Operation Manual which says: 'Pump is set for an input signal of 0-10 Vdc by the dip switches on the pump control.'

However, your description of the Grundfos UF 26-96 F (SKU 52722341) does not say anything about it being a variable speed pump. If I purchase this pump for use with the Lochnivar Knight KHN, will it work as a variable speed pump?"

On 8/1/17 supplyhouse replied with the following:

Product Support
"Hello,
That Grundfos pump is a variable speed pump and will act as such in your system. Thanks so much and have a great day."

Best regards
Steve

Tonight (11/5/17) I entered "52722341" in the supplyhouse search box and the response was that they have 70 of them in stock.

I'll probably use the pump that shipped with my KHN, until an ECM pump becomes available.

Dave H_2

Depends on the size you need. Taco has the VR3452 (34' of head, 52 gpm) that is ECM and accepts a 0-10v signal.

There is also the "standard" 00 series that can be made with a VV controller added to any size 00.

@Pidge that 26-96 circ will not be variable speed from the 0-10v signal from the boiler. That circ will work for the design of the boiler but will need an external controller in order to change speeds based upon the boiler demands.


Dave H.

Brewbeer

So basically small, 0-10 vdc input pumps controllable by the newer residential modcon boilers are not yet commercially available? Any ideas as to when they are expected to debut?

Boon

It might be possible to hack a 1816 by replacing the dial with a small circuit that accepts the 0-10v from th boiler.

Harvey Ramer

I stopped at the Armstrong Fluid Technologies booth last AHR show. They showed me their new ECM small circ. The Compass H. The gentleman I talked to told me it can be operated on a 0-10VDC signal. I don't see it in their literature though, but it might be worth a phone call.

Dave H_2

@Brewbeer The only residential boiler I know that has the signal output for a circulator is the lochinvar. Stay tuned as the industry starts to "communicate" together.
ECM 0-10v may be aways out, but you can get a 007-vv that excepts 0-10v today.

Dave H.

hot_rod

Harvey Ramer said:

I stopped at the Armstrong Fluid Technologies booth last AHR show. They showed me their new ECM small circ. The Compass H. The gentleman I talked to told me it can be operated on a 0-10VDC signal. I don't see it in their literature though, but it might be worth a phone call.

I saw some prototypes at another pump both also.

I'd rather the boiler gave use PWM control for the boiler pumps. that 0-10 is kind of an antiquated signal, most everything is going digital.

The odd thing is the fans are controlled by PWM, why not a second output for then pump?

Ibrodn

There are several ECM pumps now available with 0-10 signal input. Taco has the the VR series, Grundfos has the Magna3 with smaller models coming. These pump use 1/3rd of the power of a conventional pump. Boilers that I know that dial in pump speed off of Delta T (0-10 input) are
the Lock (mentioned above) and all HTP boilers with the 928 control board that has the new HTP wi-fi link. Go see at AHR

hot_rod

The Armstrong Compass R is available, it may be too large however. Rumor of a Grundfos Alpha XL with 0-10 input. Maybe some new ECM 0-10 will be at AHR.

Gordy

So how does viessmann pull it off?

LochinvarLLC

Hi Everyone
Lochinvar Marketing here!

Check out the link below to see the sales literature for "THE BEST KNIGHT EVER". Inside the literature, you'll find that Lochinvar is now providing a 0-10v ECM variable pump from Grundfos as standard equipment on all Knight Boilers.

To our knowledge, Grundfos has not introduced this to N. America yet, but keep an eye out for it. The Grundfos family name is UPM Series.

http://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/KHBWHB -01.PDF

hot_rod

LochinvarLLC said:

Hi Everyone
Lochinvar Marketing here!

Check out the link below to see the sales literature for "THE BEST KNIGHT EVER". Inside the literature, you'll find that Lochinvar is now providing a 0-10v ECM variable pump from Grundfos as standard equipment on all Knight Boilers.

To our knowledge, Grundfos has not introduced this to N. America yet, but keep an eye out for it. The Grundfos family name is UPM Series.

http://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/KHBWHB -01.PDF

Nice addition, thanks.

Turbo Dave

I also want a 0-10V ECM to upgrade a heat pump system. I spoke with a Grundfos rep. in March. He expected release in the US by fall. I hope they keep that timetable.

hot_rod

I got one of the test pumps, it's a unusual size 25-124, union body probably based on one of the Euro offering. I think it has been available as an OEM offering to manufacturers.

But my older boiler doesn't have that output

Tinman

The pics I just posted in “Almost done” are the new KHB boilers. 285k each. All of the upgrades are on this Knight are awesome. Lochinvar listens to contractors and then acts. That’s rare.

BigRob

I can’t believe these aren’t on the market yet. Armstrong teased us. Somebody please us.

pecmsg

BigRob said:

I can’t believe these aren’t on the market yet. Armstrong teased us. Somebody please us.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Taco-VR3452-HY1-FC1A00-Product-Overview.pdf

SuperTech

Taco should make a VT pump that can work off of a connection to the boiler as well as the temperature sensors.

pecmsg

I believe that pump can.
ON / OFF signal then 0-10VDC for speed control

Yes a little expensive. We use them on our secondary chilled water systems.

BigRob

I have a VR for our 12 zones- works great. I still need a 0-10v for the Lochinvar. It looks like the compass H was going to have 0-10, then that feature was pulled? I agree the Tacos could probably be hacked. Maybe Taco made that dial modulate an internal 0-10v signal. I guess the industry still needs to sell their stockpiled inventory of the non-ecm 0-10’s first?

hot_rod

See if you can buy a replacement circ from Lochinvar, sounds like they have OEM version in the Knights?

There are different control logic programmed into a circ like that. A solar 0-10VDC would use different logic from a heating circ.

SuperTech

What I would really like to see is a variable speed ECM pump that can work off a outdoor reset curve for mixing applications.

Taco I series circulator pump perhaps?

pecmsg

SuperTech said:

What I would really like to see is a variable speed ECM pump that can work off a outdoor reset curve for mixing applications.



Taco I series circulator pump perhaps?

The viridian can measure the return water or discharge air...……..that's close enough for me!

tuffcalc

Old thread ... but I’ve also been looking for a small ecm 0-10v input pump to use with my lochinvar knight.

Just ordered the Armstrong compass H. https://armstrongfluidtechnology.com/~/media/documents/sales-and-marketing/solution-outlines/10-192-compass-h-solutionoutline.pdf?la=en

I have been using a taco 007 vvf but it’s not ecm (but does work great)

BigRob

tuffcalc said:

Old thread ... but I’ve also been looking for a small ecm 0-10v input pump to use with my lochinvar knight.



Just ordered the Armstrong compass H. https://armstrongfluidtechnology.com/~/media/documents/sales-and-marketing/solution-outlines/10-192-compass-h-solutionoutline.pdf?la=en



I have been using a taco 007 vvf but it’s not ecm (but does work great)

It’s on the market. Awesome! Thanks for the tip. Finally, a reasonably priced, small, ECM 0-10V circulator. Let’s make Armstrong famous. Grundfos is slacking. How can the Alpha not have 0-10V?

Leon82

> @tuffcalc said:
> Old thread ... but I’ve also been looking for a small ecm 0-10v input pump to use with my lochinvar knight.
>
> Just ordered the Armstrong compass H. https://armstrongfluidtechnology.com/~/media/documents/sales-and-marketing/solution-outlines/10-192-compass-h-solutionoutline.pdf?la=en
>
> I have been using a taco 007 vvf but it’s not ecm (but does work great)

Do you know if the flange height dimensions are the same?

tuffcalc

> @Leon82 said:
> > @tuffcalc said:
> > Old thread ... but I’ve also been looking for a small ecm 0-10v input pump to use with my lochinvar knight.
> >
> > Just ordered the Armstrong compass H. https://armstrongfluidtechnology.com/~/media/documents/sales-and-marketing/solution-outlines/10-192-compass-h-solutionoutline.pdf?la=en
> >
> > I have been using a taco 007 vvf but it’s not ecm (but does work great)
>
> Do you know if the flange height dimensions are the same?


Take a look at the link I posted. They have a drawing in there. It’s a direct replacement for most taco/Grundfos so probably same.

BigRob

I finally have the Compass 20-20H installed with the 0-10V. It seems like a nice pump and it's easy to use. The integrated junction box is also easy to use. This pump is the boiler bump for a Knight WHN100 fire tube boiler which has very little pressure drop. The Knight only lets me set the min voltage to 2.5V, while the compass min is 2V, and shuts off below 2V. As is, the compass pumps too much to hit 20F deltaT across the fire tube. When the knight meets the set point it sets the 0-10V to 100% and the compass pumps like crazy. It would be nice if the knight allowed the min 0-10V setting to be lower and had some options to control the speed when the set point is met.

BoilerToolbox

The newer version of the Lochinvar KHN is the KHB. The KHB's ship with a Grundfos 0-10v pump that is only available as an OEM part. Go to your local wholesaler and ask them to order you a replacement pump through Lochinvar for the KHB that is the same size as your boiler. The part number is available on the parts list at Lochinvar.com on the Knight page under Technical Documents:



You could also use a Grundfos Magna 3 but that is overkill on a residential boiler.

ratio

You could also rescale the 2½-10 volt signal with one of these.

BigRob

At some point I will put a resistor inline to drop the 2.5V out to slightly above 2V and then call it a day. I think I looked into the Lochinvar replacement and it was a lot more than the $175 I spent on the compass H. I'll report back with the results of the resistor test.

BigRob

That link seems to be broken. Can you share the raw url?

HomerJSmith

Yes, Lochinvar comes with a Grundfos UPML variable speed circ . The Lochinvar that I ordered for a SIM application came with one.

BigRob

ratio said:

You could also rescale the 2½-10 volt signal with one of these.

Thanks for the prodding/idea. I did find these:

https://www.kele.com/templates/content.aspx?id=4705