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Boiler Piping: Leave It or Change It
Bryan1982
Member Posts: 3
When I ran the piping for my boiler I miss understood the term "pumping away". I put the expansion tank before the pump but I also thought that part of "pumping away" was to put the pump on the supply side of the boiler so it would pump away from the boiler also. Do I drain the water and change the pump to the return side of the boiler or leave it as is?
I originally had the piping set up as a direct feed system but changed it to a primary/secondary system with the webstone closely spaced tee manifold with the valve between so I would have an option to run it both ways.
Anything else you guys would change while you at it
Boiler is a HTP MC120
Thanks in advanced for any suggestions, tips and/or advice
I originally had the piping set up as a direct feed system but changed it to a primary/secondary system with the webstone closely spaced tee manifold with the valve between so I would have an option to run it both ways.
Anything else you guys would change while you at it
Boiler is a HTP MC120
Thanks in advanced for any suggestions, tips and/or advice
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Comments
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Kind of hard to follow with my old eyes.
I am assuming that the boiler pump is pumping away from the expansion tank down into the webstone tee. And I am assuming that the radiant pump is pulling water through the manifold system
if that is correct
I think the danger is that if the manifold and radiant are restrictive it could drop the pressure on the suction side of the radiant pump down to 0psi.
If you have a way to check the pressure on the inlet side of the pump do that first.
You could flip that pump over and move it to the other pipe0 -
The boiler pump is "pumping away" from the expansion tank down to webstone tee. The radiant or secondary pump is pumping into the manifold. The supply to manifold is on the bottom "red handle valve and the return is on the top "blue handle valve".
If I flip the pump to the other side I would also have to change the piping on the closely space tee's correct?0 -
The preferred place for the boiler pump would be in the boiler's return line.
It looks like you have eight loops of 1/2" pex which would mean you're moving 4-6 total gpm through the floor. That translates to about 20k to 30k btus going to the floor at a 10* delta T. What size is the boiler? What kinda SWT are you sending to the floor?
My initial reaction would be to see how well it works as is. Take the delta T measurement on the boiler and also one on the radiant side with the floor up to temp and post them.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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then you have the pumps pumping against each other. Gotta change it0
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Not following you, Ed.EBEBRATT-Ed said:then you have the pumps pumping against each other. Gotta change it
The boiler pump is pumping into the left Tee; flow in the secondary is right to left; therefore, the energy delivered by the boiler pump is heading towards the inlet of the secondary pump. How are pumping against each other?
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
What's with the filtrol? And relief valve up there on the piping? I'm sure you didn't need a #30 expansion tank. #15 is fine for most residential applications. The math doesn't lie.Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
Consulting & Troubleshooting
Heating in NYC or NJ.
Classes0 -
@Ironman: the boiler is a HTP MC120. It's 120,000 BTUs modulates down to 44,000. I had a heat loss calculation done for my building at it came up at 69,000 BTUs. My initial thought was to set each zone up with .8 -.9 GPM for a total flow rate of around 7 GPM which I thought was around 70,000 BTUs but after reading your comment I'm thinking the boiler is way oversized. The building is a pole barn. 36x56x14.6. 6 windows. 2- 13'3" insulated overhead doors. Walls are dense packed cellouse at about 7" deep. Ceiling is blown in at about 18" deep. Floor/Sidewalls insulated with 2" high density foam. I have not started system up yet as it has been to warm out yet.
@JohnNY thanks for noticing the tank size was wrong. I was sent the wrong sized one and I didn't pay attention when I pulled it out of the box and installed it. The right one will be here tomorrow. As for the relief valve that was my mistake. I knew the boiler had one the supply side but for some reason I can't explain I installed one where I did.
Thanks for the help guys0 -
@Bryan1982
Even if the relief valve was not factory installed, it MUST be installed as close to the boiler as possible.
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@Ironman , well maybe I am wrong.
It looks to me as though the boiler pump (from the boiler supply) is pumping down into the left hand top connection on the webstone and the other top connection is return to the boiler (with the blue strainer) so the water would move left to right in the webstone.
He stated above that the bottom manifold (red handle) is the supply so the water goes out the red manifold and returns to the blue manifold so the water moves from right to left in the webstone which looks backwards to me0 -
If the floor is heating a living space, then it should be designed for a 10-12* delta T in order to prevent striping. To get 70k btus at a 10* delta T you need 14 gpm flow rate.Bryan1982 said:@Ironman: the boiler is a HTP MC120. It's 120,000 BTUs modulates down to 44,000. I had a heat loss calculation done for my building at it came up at 69,000 BTUs. My initial thought was to set each zone up with .8 -.9 GPM for a total flow rate of around 7 GPM which I thought was around 70,000 BTUs but after reading your comment I'm thinking the boiler is way oversized. The building is a pole barn. 36x56x14.6. 6 windows. 2- 13'3" insulated overhead doors. Walls are dense packed cellouse at about 7" deep. Ceiling is blown in at about 18" deep. Floor/Sidewalls insulated with 2" high density foam. I have not started system up yet as it has been to warm out yet.
@JohnNY thanks for noticing the tank size was wrong. I was sent the wrong sized one and I didn't pay attention when I pulled it out of the box and installed it. The right one will be here tomorrow. As for the relief valve that was my mistake. I knew the boiler had one the supply side but for some reason I can't explain I installed one where I did.
Thanks for the help guys
If the floor is in a shop or garage, then running a 20* delta T is fine and you'll need 7 gpm.
Either way, your boiler is over-sized. You should have chosen something in the 80k btu range. If it's heating a slab, the high mass will prevent short cycling and you should be okay. Just make sure the ODR curve is set properly.
8 loops of 1/2" pex that are under 300' each with a Grundfos ups15-58, you'll probably see about .75 gpm per loop.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
@EBEBRATT-Ed,EBEBRATT-Ed said:@Ironman , well maybe I am wrong.
It looks to me as though the boiler pump (from the boiler supply) is pumping down into the left hand top connection on the webstone and the other top connection is return to the boiler (with the blue strainer) so the water would move left to right in the webstone.
He stated above that the bottom manifold (red handle) is the supply so the water goes out the red manifold and returns to the blue manifold so the water moves from right to left in the webstone which looks backwards to me
The only way that flow could go left to right through the Webstone Tees would be IF the secondary pump produced less flow than the primary. In which case only SOME of the flow would be left to right. If the secondary pump is producing as MUCH or MORE flow than the boiler pump (as it should be doing), then ALL of the flow through the Webstone Tees is from right to left. This is how it should be to transfer all of the heat the boiler is producing to the secondary.
The above diagram is mirrored from Bryan's setup, so flip it and you'll see that what he has is right. The return from the system should always connect closest to the boiler return.
@Bryan 1982,
I'm not sure what the pressure drop is through the boiler, but I'd first try it with the secondary pump on HIGH speed and the boiler pump on MEDIUM and see how it works.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
FWIW, there's no downside to having an oversized expansion tank other than the cost of purchasing it, or in your case, that's it crowded the installation a bit. You don't need to change it if you don't want to.Bryan1982 said:
Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
Consulting & Troubleshooting
Heating in NYC or NJ.
Classes0 -
He has the exp tank/air scrubber on the wrong side .. Its on the secondary boiler side..
The whole thing is wrong.
OP posted in our forums in DIY but maybe didnt like my response..
Ive installed many of these and there is no reason not to follow what the manufacturer clearly lays out in their instructions..
Its typical P/S piping...
Its my opinion that any advice given is a mute point...
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/boilers-home-heating-steam-hot-water-systems/585154-boiler-piping-leave-change.html0 -
@Lawrosa,Lawrosa said:He has the exp tank/air scrubber on the wrong side .. Its on the secondary boiler side..
The whole thing is wrong.
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why the expansion tank and the PONPC has to be on the system loop and not the boiler loop and why "the whole thing is wrong".
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
Here are the install instructions..Ironman said:
http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-171.pdf
probably will be major air issues on those pex loops IMO..
The OP could by all means leave it, but its not to the manufactures piping scheme. And any and all P/S piping is piped this way. Its plumbing 101, so why would one deviate.???
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Your setup would purge air more easily if it was piped per instructions with the expansion tank on the secondary.
When I first looked at it, I was concerned about the pressure relief location. I then saw that the boiler has a valve internally, so you don't really need the other one.
I absolutely would not repipe anything if it is functioning well. The expansion tank is huge, but as noted there is no downside. The boiler is significantly oversized, but it's a little late for that conversation.
You have to appreciate @Lawrosa 's passion as he followed the OP from another website to convince him he has committed a felony by deviating from the manual."If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein
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Lawrosa said:
Here are the install instructions..Ironman said:
http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-171.pdf
probably will be major air issues on those pex loops IMO..
The OP could by all means leave it, but its not to the manufactures piping scheme. And any and all P/S piping is piped this way. Its plumbing 101, so why would one deviate.???
@LawrosaLawrosa said:
Here are the install instructions..Ironman said:
http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-171.pdf
probably will be major air issues on those pex loops IMO..
The OP could by all means leave it, but its not to the manufactures piping scheme. And any and all P/S piping is piped this way. Its plumbing 101, so why would one deviate.???
Please show where in the I/O manual that it states that it MUST be piped that way. The diagrams in there are to help an installer with different methods for different systems. They are by no means exhaustive, nor exclusive.
You seem to be very dogmatic about it, but we've piped many boilers like this with no issues whatsoever:
As you can see, the MBR and the expansion tank are on the boiler loop. So, not "any and all" p/s gets piped that way.
It looks very similar to what Bryan 1982 did.
You can also find it multiple times in John Siegenthaler's book. I guess he didn't take "plumbing 101".
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
Thats a different piping scheme you show. If you know how closely spaced tees operate you will see on the HTP the boilers secondary loop is injected into the bull of the tee. To the primary run..Ironman said:Lawrosa said:
Here are the install instructions..Ironman said:
http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-171.pdf
probably will be major air issues on those pex loops IMO..
The OP could by all means leave it, but its not to the manufactures piping scheme. And any and all P/S piping is piped this way. Its plumbing 101, so why would one deviate.???
@LawrosaLawrosa said:
Here are the install instructions..Ironman said:
http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-171.pdf
probably will be major air issues on those pex loops IMO..
The OP could by all means leave it, but its not to the manufactures piping scheme. And any and all P/S piping is piped this way. Its plumbing 101, so why would one deviate.???
Please show where in the I/O manual that it states that it MUST be piped that way. The diagrams in there are to help an installer with different methods for different systems. They are by no means exhaustive, nor exclusive.
You seem to be very dogmatic about it, but we've piped many boilers like this with no issues whatsoever:
As you can see, the MBR and the expansion tank are on the boiler loop. So, not "any and all" p/s gets piped that way.
It looks very similar to what Bryan 1982 did.
You can also find it multiple times in John Siegenthaler's book. I guess he didn't take "plumbing 101".
The pic you show has a different injection as the heat loops are the secondary loops..
And as stated exp tank and scrubber is always on the primary.. Basic p/s layout...
So your pic is correct exp tank is on primary.....
Hey you can do what you all want.. Im just trying to help.. I dont need to be flamed.. Ive been doing this 30 plus years fellows!!!
Ive read all of johns books...
And anyway the expansion tank could probably stay there and I wouldnt turn the pump around,( What the original post was about becuase he stated he wasnt pumping away) The pump must pump towards the boiler...
My whole point is you would not need to do this if you piped the boiler the first time with p/s piping 101 as I call it..
And anyway im probably the only one to take the time to follow the OP's piping with his 3 pics and make any logical suggestions. I dont think anyone else here deciphered what loop was primary /secondary...
See the 19 minute mark in this instructional video on exp tank placement... And continue watching on explanation of the Delta P / Pumping away
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6kbT1_2Xjn4
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Thats a different piping scheme you show."
"The pic you show has a different injection as the heat loops are the secondary loops.."
So, please tell us how it's wrong?
"And as stated exp tank and scrubber is always on the primary.. Basic p/s layout..."
Plug So your pic is correct exp tank is on primary....."
"Hey you can do what you all want.. Im just trying to help.. I dont need to be flamed.. Ive been doing this 30 plus years fellows!!!"
And I've been doing it for 45+. That doesn't make what I say right, nor does 30 + for you. Stick to the facts. You repeatedly said it was wrong and needed to be re-done. I posted a diagram that shows its fine. So, from a FACTUAL standpoint, what's wrong with it?
Flamed? Since when is holding someone to facts "flaming" them? You chased the OP across three sites to torch him.
"Ive read all of johns books..."
"And anyway the expansion tank could probably stay there and I wouldnt turn the pump around,( What the original post was about becuase he stated he wasnt pumping away) The pump must pump towards the boiler..."
"My whole point is you would not need to do this if you piped the boiler the first time with p/s piping 101 as I call it.."
"And anyway im probably the only one to take the time to follow the OP's piping with his 3 pics and make any logical suggestions. I dont think anyone else here deciphered what loop was primary /secondary..."
Really?? The primary loop is where the PONPC is.
"See the 19 minute mark in this instructional video on exp tank placement... And continue watching on explanation of the Delta P / Pumping away"
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6kbT1_2Xjn4
Do you realize that the man that owns this site is considered the foremost authority on hydronics? Also, that many of the contributors are top men in the field? I would encourage you to spend some time here and learn from them rather than blasting in with dogmatic statements that you can't prove and stating that you're the only one that sees the problem. I mean that sincerely.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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Theres no dogmatic statements. Its not piped to the manufacturers diagrams..
1. he is pumping towards the expansion tank on the secondary loop...
I didnt follow him from 3 sites. He posted in my DIY forum where I am a mod and someone pointed out he posted here as well..
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/boilers-home-heating-steam-hot-water-systems/585287-boiler-bypass-question.html
Its all my opinion anyway..
But you must be the forum police iron man , because you sure do make people feel no welcome here.. My opinion is your just being kind of rude and you know how to make someone feel bad about themselves..
Thanks
God Bless......
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@LawrosaLawrosa said:Theres no dogmatic statements. Its not piped to the manufacturers diagrams..
1. he is pumping towards the expansion tank on the secondary loop...
I didnt follow him from 3 sites. He posted in my DIY forum where I am a mod and someone pointed out he posted here as well..
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/boilers-home-heating-steam-hot-water-systems/585287-boiler-bypass-question.html
Its all my opinion anyway..
But you must be the forum police iron man , because you sure do make people feel no welcome here.. My opinion is your just being kind of rude and you know how to make someone feel bad about themselves..
Thanks
God Bless......
Forum police? Made you feel bad?
YOU are the ONE who pursued the OP to this site in an effort to make him feel bad about his piping. YOU are the ONE who insisted that his whole piping was wrong and needed to be ripped out. YOU put yourself on a pedestal by stating you were the ONLY one who could decipher the OP's pics and see what was wrong. YOU are the one who said that no one else here could decipher p/s piping.
"No dogmatic statements" "Any and all P/S piping is piped this way."
Obviously, your memory is short.
So, my posting a diagram and stating facts knocked the wind out of your sails? I guess you need a safe space.
If you had come here with a little humility and respect, you would have gotten a different response. Now, when showed that you were wrong, you resort to blame shifting.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
So your pic shows the exp tank on the primary.. ( As any plumber would install it..)
The op's is on the secondary.
You, as a professional, take that exp tank in your pic and put it on one of those secondary's loops..
Would you pipe it that way Bob???? as a professional?
Why dont you pipe all your boilers like that from now on.. You say its ok and works, so why not?
You should probably get an infraction from the mods for being rude to new members trying to help.. Its guys like you why people dont frequent this forum.. You have your own click and no outsiders allowed right?
God forbid someone else pisses in your oatmeal...Maybe your just having a bad day..
But I guess ill go read the rules of the forum now....
Im sure the other professionals here will see my point im trying to make. Your too argumentative
All comments above are strictly my opinion...; Ones mileage may vary!!
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@Lawrosa
I am still trying to figure out why you are all worked up about this one.
Not every drawing in every manufactures instruction manual is a "bible" that must be followed to a tee. It is pretty common for manufactures to change their mind. I have seen I&O manuals evolve over time for the same product.
The funny thing is that in this case I agree with you that the manufactures instructions provide a slightly superior design and if I was doing the job, I would do it that way.
At the same time, this is one of the best DYI installs I have seen and by all accounts it is running perfectly. I see countless pro jobs that are inferior in both quality and design.
The last thing that would cross my mind if I saw this installation in the field is that it should be torn out and repiped."If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein2 -
Direct quote from the I/O manual under EVERY piping diagram:Lawrosa said:
Here are the install instructions..Ironman said:
http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-171.pdf
probably will be major air issues on those pex loops IMO..
The OP could by all means leave it, but its not to the manufactures piping scheme. And any and all P/S piping is piped this way. Its plumbing 101, so why would one deviate.???
"1. This drawing is meant to demonstrate system piping concept only."
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
Ironman, thanks for the kind words, but I haven't owned this site since May 1, 2016. Erin is the owner, so how about some peace in the valley. Let's all be friends. Thanks, gents.Retired and loving it.0
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Agreed. Thank you.
President
HeatingHelp.com0 -
I was waiting for it to make it to Pay Per View.0
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