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Viessmann Vitorond 100 destroyed my clay liner and is spewing red stains on my brick center chimney

JDJ
JDJ Member Posts: 15
Hello, I have a 2007 Viessmann Vitorond 100 oil furnace with a Beckett NX burner. It exhausts through a center of home 3 flue chimney made of solid cement block, clay tile liner, and the top that shows is brick with flues divided be brick " towers " that used to carry a big piece of Bluestone for a cap.
The furnace has been cleaned and serviced annually since 2008. In November of 2014 I went up on the roof t,o clean the wood burning flue and discovered staining ( kind of LGBT. Brown/ yellow ) and a few little pieces of brick on the roof (off the oil flue tower interior). To shorten the discussion this led me to removing the cap to find the clay tile destroyed til about six feet down and the rest looking pitted up pretty bad.
I did a lot of research and was told that I needed to put a stainless liner in (which I did). I also had my mason remove the towers,wash and damaged tile first,and put on a new wash that would accommodate three metal rain caps ( stainless and aluminum ). I also had to spend hours cleaning the staining off my chimney. Luckily at that time most of the staining was on the two least fisable sides. I had the furnace serviced again by my oil companies requested Viessmann knowledgeable technician. THIS ALL HAPPENED PRIOR TO THE 2015 HEAT SEASON.
After the 2015/16 heat season I found the chimney then was red staining my newly repaired chimney and wash,and flashing,and starting to get on the asphalt shingles. Went through hours and hours of phone calls and emails to various "EXPERTS IN THE FIELD", INSPECTORS, INSURANCE ENGINEERS,ECT.. HAD IT SERVICED TWICE MORE BY VIESSMAN TRAINED TECHS. AND IS STILL SPEWING STAINS THAT ARE NOW RUNNING DOWN MY VISABLE (FRONT SIDE) OF MY ROOF AND STARTING ONTO ROOF !!
I'm am soooworn out and frustrated by this I saw your forum and hoped you can help me.

SORRY FOR THE LONG LETTER....IT COULD BE MUCH LONGER.

JDJ
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Comments

  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,508
    Oil burners need to be set up properly, no matter what boiler they're attached to. Viessmann has specific setup instructions for recommended burners in their manuals. Are the technicians following the specifications? Are they using a combustion analyzer to test the setup? If condensation is happening, than the SS liner may be sized improperly or the system stack temperatures may be too low. If the boiler doesn't reach a temp of 140 degrees within 5 minutes of firing, that is a good indicator of a condensing issue. The control that is being used also has influence. The Vitotronic 200 control has coding that can relieve condensation issues. A system that has radiant heat only requires a motorized 4 way mixing valve controlled by the boiler computer. Chimney or stack issues aren't that complex, but need to be resolved or the boiler will be at risk for premature failure from acidic condensate.
    JDJ
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,910
    Let me re-emphasize to of @Paul Pollets ' points: first, the oil burner must be set up properly, by someone with proper tools and training. Second, the boiler and circulator controls must be set up so that the boiler does not condense,

    This applies to any oil burning appliance.

    And then I will add one more: the quality of the oil matters. Be sure that you are getting low or very low sulphur oil. Cheap oil isn't....
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    JDJ
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,329
    Where are you located? We may know someone who knows what they're doing...............
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    JDJ
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,988
    About the only thing that will cause that staining is condensation.

    Someone needs to get their head into the Viessmann manual, set the boiler up according to the manual (first) and find the problem that is making the boiler condense.

    If the way Viessmann says to set it up isn't working, change something.

    I don't trust any manufacturer completely. You have to use combustion test equipment AND common sense.

    A technician that sets it "by the book" and it isn't working and he does nothing has blinders over his eyes.

    it's easy for the factory to tell you what will work in a LAB. You don't live in a lab



    JDJ
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    Most boiler manufacturers have a disclaimer stating the set up procedure is a guideline and final adjustments must be done with a combustion analyzer by a qualified technician.
    I have also come across many Beckett NX burners that were not set up correctly, especially on retrofit installations. They can be a little tricky on the initial set up, but done correctly, they run nice.
    It certainly sounds like a condensation issue, and the stains are due to unburned dye particles in the fuel.
    JDJ
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    I does sound like condensation, although a lined interior chimney should be good with the relatively low stack temp of a Vitorond. Do you have the stainless chamber insert?
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    JDJ
  • JDJ
    JDJ Member Posts: 15
    Thanks to you for your responses so far! And yes it has a circular stainless chamber. The first one was very stained and the tech. changed it that was part of an upgrade kit that Beckett gave us.
    Also the chimney size came from Viessmann and was purchased from Olympia Chimney in Pennsylvania.
  • JDJ
    JDJ Member Posts: 15
    There's got to be someone from both Viessmann and Beckett that know how to make this work correctly. And I don't mean sales reps. Also how do I find out if my oil is the best grade available?
    Should I also be using Viessmann controls. I have several zones in my house. I've also told all the Viessmann "specialists " that randomly the burner short (as little as 3 seconds).
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,988
    Well, Beckett is in OHIO. I think Viessmann & Beckett both have some skin in the game to make this right and to me you have gone above and beyond.

    If it was me and I was a homeowner I would be making some (maybe a lot) of noise.

    I am sure Beckett want's their burners to work well in a Viessmann. Think I might start with them....... Far as I know they are known as a stand-up company. You just have to get to the right person
    JDJ
  • JDJ
    JDJ Member Posts: 15
    Ed, thanks! Like I said in my original post? I've been 31 months and hundreds of hours. It's very sad what this world has come to when it comes to people wanting to do what's right. Bad for Viessmann and Beckett....I don't quit on anything,never.
    When I have more time I could share (and will) the countless phone calls and emails to Viessmann,Beckett, inspectors,my state Fuel Board, local,and state reps.....and more.
    If they worked for me I'd fire them all for at the least piss poor customer service.
    This is not a good situation,I'm thinking of tearing the whole system out. Electric ?
    Very tired of it all,we all have enough junk in our lives without dealing with dubs.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,910
    What's sad is that you haven't been able to find a technician who is willing and able to get the setup working properly. Even if it is a rather unusual situation, you are dealing with quality components and highly reputable companies -- but the weak link is right there,as it so often is, with installation and setup.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    edited July 2017
    > @EBEBRATT-Ed said:

    > I am sure Beckett want's their burners to work well in a Viessmann. Think I might start with them....... Far as I know they are known as a stand-up company. You just have to get to the right person

    >>Agreed. There's got to be a regional rep. that Beckett will send out to go over your system. You will have to coordinate with a service company, as the rep. won't be doing the actual work.
    On L.I., we had Charlie (since retired ), who even gave us his cell# and was very responsive, especially with all the Aquasmart problems when they first came out.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    edited July 2017
    Retired? Don't know where that came from but he certainly isn't !
    HVACNUT said:

    > @EBEBRATT-Ed said:



    > I am sure Beckett want's their burners to work well in a Viessmann. Think I might start with them....... Far as I know they are known as a stand-up company. You just have to get to the right person



    >>Agreed. There's got to be a regional rep. that Beckett will send out to go over your system. You will have to coordinate with a service company, as the rep. won't be doing the actual work.

    On L.I., we had Charlie (since retired ), who even gave us his cell# and was very responsive, especially with all the Aquasmart problems when they first came out.

    Certainly not retired! If you are on LI, send me a PM and I'll reply with his #. It's not a manufacturers issue, if the flue gas is falling below the dew point before exiting chimney, there will be condensation. It doesn't matter who makes the equipment. It's the installers responsibility to review the existing venting to ascertain if it is suitable to the proposed appliance and if it isn't then to recommend whatever needs to be done to make it so. In this case, the liner may need to be insulated and/or adjustments made to the boiler/burner to assure the flue gasses are above the dew point at the top of chimney. It isn't rocket science.

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flue-gases-average-dew-point-typical-fuels-d_1584.html
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  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    edited July 2017
    From the I&O manual
    https://www.viessmann-us.com/en/services/downloads/manuals.html

    Chimney
    For proper operation of the Vitorond boiler, all products of
    combustion must be safely vented to the outdoors, while
    ensuring that flue gases do not cool prematurely.
    It is critical that the chimney system be properly designed
    to handle the flue gas temperatures which the Vitorond
    boiler produces.
    Flue gases which cool too quickly and produce
    condensation lead to damages if the chimney diameter is
    too large and the chimney system is not well insulated.
    If a calculated chimney diameter lies between two
    values, the larger diameter should be selected.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    > @Robert O'Brien said:
    > Retired? Don't know where that came from but he certainly isn't.

    >>my apologies. Wrong Charlie. Charlie Smith from Buderus is kickin' it, poolside.
  • Charlie Masone
    Charlie Masone Member Posts: 66
    Robert O'BrienCanuckerHVACNUTMilanD
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,988
    Maybe it is an installation problem that his tech. can't find. That doesn't relieve the equipment manufacturers from providing a little support.

    Never met a manufacturer yet who wasn't willing to try and prove his equipment ISNT the problem.

    The manufacturers are willing to sell their equipment to ANYONE even unqualified service companies.

    Since they reap the profits from that they also bear responsibility to help pinpoint problems
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    I'm not saying they wouldn't or shouldn't provide some input. I am saying that flue gas condensation isn't the fault of the equipment. Viessmann specifically states:

    "For proper operation of the Vitorond boiler, all products of
    combustion must be safely vented to the outdoors, while
    ensuring that flue gases do not cool prematurely.
    It is critical that the chimney system be properly designed
    to handle the flue gas temperatures which the Vitorond
    boiler produces."

    Every CI boiler I&O manual states pretty much the same.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    @Charlie Masone. LMAO at that.
    Reports of your "retirement" have been greatly exaggerated.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,988
    @Robert O'Brien , the least the mfg should do is point the owner to a reliable service company and provide support for the tech they send. Apparently he has been dealing with this for a while.

    the homeowner stated:

    When I have more time I could share (and will) the countless phone calls and emails to Viessmann, Beckett, inspectors, my state Fuel Board, local,and state reps.....and more.

    Just saying he has done enough and should be able to get and deserves a response.

    But, there's two sides to every story.....
  • JDJ
    JDJ Member Posts: 15
    I can assure everyone that has commented or looked at my original posting that there is only "one side to this story" !
    I have for THIRTY ONE MONTHS spent countless hours communicating with Viessmann,Beckett and technicians that were supposed to be my system specific . Many times I have had to re contact the reps. of the manufacturers because THEY DROPPED THE BALL.
    Maybe the Viessmann and Beckett Company shouldn't have hung me out to dry 31 MONTHS AGO.
    I have never gone cheap to get this resolved , l never was a "rocket scientist " nor do I think I know anywhere near as much as you folks about a heat system.
    But I have the phone records and emails that prove how hard I have worked to get this problem resolved.

    All I'm asking for is advice and I appreciate it, NO TWO SIDES TO THIS STORY !!

    IM GLADLY GOING TO OFFER ALL THESE COMMENTS TO THE PARTIES INVOLVED IF IT CAN HELP TO END THIS MESS
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,910
    Good luck. And get your local maintenance people to set you up right.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    JDJ
  • sparkie
    sparkie Member Posts: 46
    kind of LGBT. Brown/ yellow ) Could you explain this a little better?
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    edited July 2017
    STOP YELLING AT ME! I'm very sensitive.
    Most manufacturers will not send a rep at the home owners request. A qualified tech. must address the situation, (hello situation) and place the call himself to the appropriate manufacturer and report his findings. Then a rep should be able to come out and meet the TECH. at the job.
    But like Robert O'Brien said, it's probably an installer issue, not manufacturing. Occam's razor.
  • JDJ
    JDJ Member Posts: 15

    @Robert O'Brien , the least the mfg should do is point the owner to a reliable service company and provide support for the tech they send. Apparently he has been dealing with this for a while.

    the homeowner stated:

    When I have more time I could share (and will) the countless phone calls and emails to Viessmann, Beckett, inspectors, my state Fuel Board, local,and state reps.....and more.

    Just saying he has done enough and should be able to get and deserves a response.

    But, there's two sides to every story...

  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    The solution is as simple as one Tech who has a modicum of understanding of venting and a combustion analyzer, that's it. Doesn't need to be a "specialist" in one brand or another.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • Charlie Masone
    Charlie Masone Member Posts: 66
    Where is this guy?
    Robert O'Brien
  • JDJ
    JDJ Member Posts: 15
    Here are some photos










































  • JDJ
    JDJ Member Posts: 15
    Photos
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,910

    The solution is as simple as one Tech who has a modicum of understanding of venting and a combustion analyzer, that's it. Doesn't need to be a "specialist" in one brand or another.

    Precisely. The problem has nothing to do with the manufacturer.

    Perhaps more to the point, the manufacturer can make all the recommendations and suggestions in the world -- but if the tech. on the ground doesn't do it right, it's useless.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    JDJ
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    You might have a condensing problem, but you have bad combustion problem. That thing is fugly. No way is that burner set up correctly.
    Paul PolletsJDJ
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,508
    Improper burner setup, for sure. Can't tell if there's a boiler bypass, but doubt it. Was the setup piped for radiant heat without a 4 way mixing valve??
    Robert O'Brien
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,508
    There doesn't seem to be any outdoor reset controls either. Working the boiler off the aquastat/high limit will not prevent condensation. Not only does the burner need to be setup to factory spec and proper chimney draft, near-boiler piping and sizing coupled with the proper OD control strategy are a must.
    JDJ
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    Looks like it might be multiple issues. What size is that boiler? 40Kw? All baseboard? 5 zones plus indirect?
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    JDJ
  • Charlie Masone
    Charlie Masone Member Posts: 66
    This boiler is spending excessive time condensing, the sulfur deposits are a sign of that (and a sign that he's not in New York where we use ULS fuel). The burner setup probably isn't awful as the retention head is very clean.

    This boiler is probably oversized and short cycling and / or doesn't have a bypass.
    JDJRobert O'Brien
  • JDJ
    JDJ Member Posts: 15
    Good morning, to Jamie,Robert,Paul,Charlie,Hvacnut.....
    Thanks again for your insight on my system.
    I'll send more photos of just the system and a close up of the name plate. Note that the name plate says. 2005 model year, I didn't receive it from the supply company until 2007.

    Also I strongly agree that having the right technician working on any system is the most important piece of having it function properly! That's what I need. I NEVER look for a cheap fix on anything.

    The last half dozen techs. we're supposed to have been specifically Viessmann trained ((the last two were here with the area Viessmann rep.). The last fou tech. I saw work on this all had analyzers.

    System is all baseboard hydronic heat with a 80 gallon Superstore for hot water (have a 50 gallon whirlpool interior bath tub).

    Boiler bypass? I don't know, but will find out, or you may see in new photos. What does it do?

    Outdoor reset controls? I don't know, but will find out. What does it do? Is system running off aquastat/high limit??

    Is chimney draft proper? I think they test it on the 5" exhaust pipe near the boiler, BUT NEVER HAS ANYONE CHECKED DRAFT OR CHIMNEY AT TOP (ROOF). Access to chimney top off rear of house roof (two stories but off large deck).

    Is near boiler piping correct ? Sizing, OD .?, control strategy? I don't know ? I'll ask factory reps. and tech.

    Is boiler 40Kw ? I didn't see this on name tag... will find out.

    Oil type, hopefully I can research that though my oil supplier. I only had one until last season (2007/8 until 2015/16). They also serviced the system for the last four or five years (first guy retired).
    I stopped using them as they seemed very unorganized to me.
    What is ULS FUEL . Also I called my current (2nd) oil supplier and asked the lady if she could find out if their oil was low sulfur. She asked a driver that was in the office and he told her that there was only one kind of oil, said low sulfur only pertains to diesel...UGH, Obviously I need to talk to someone else in their company. or maybe Maine Oil Dealers Asscociation.

    One more thing I just thought of...my chimney is 33' long from rain cap to basement floor. It is three flue wood stove in basement,propane gas fireplace on first floor, Viessmann Vitorond 100/Beckett NX burner in basement. The clay tile flue for the oil flue was replaced as needed at the chimney top ( the Bluestone Cap was removed and replaced with the three caps you see in photos). It is an interior chimney (except for above rooftop).

    I think the technicians that work on the heat systems in my state, MAINE, are required to be licensed in the fuel systems they work on. I believe they are supposed to carry them on them at the service location to prove this.
    I will STRONGLY RECOMMENDED THIS TO THE STATE FUEL BOARD ( and local and state authorities ).
    We all have to figure out how a high quality system (product) like this could function so poorly (and dangerously as far as toxic emissions entering my home) before the correct liner was recommended and installed. There needs to be more consumer information on this matter.
    I wish I had more information in my Systems literature circa 2005 manual.

    I hope I've answered all your questions from yesterday and before to help me resolve this when the reps. and technician get their schedules worked out and get here. Hopefully this coming week.

    THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR WISDOME AND COMMENTS
  • JDJ
    JDJ Member Posts: 15













  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,988
    Boiler oversized?? Don't think so. I think the boiler may be sized correctly but:

    every boiler mfg warns about "extensive piping and piping and pick up losses"

    If the system contains a lot of water and multiple zones it may at certain times force the boiler to be overloaded and cause it to run with lower than normal water temps that are causing condensation.

    In the old days we would put a low limit on to stop the circulators but a better fix is a bypass maybe a three way valve to control the boiler water temp, a few different ways to do this primary secondary etc.

    To cause the problems he's having this has to be running with low water temp for long periods of time
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,279

    Boiler oversized?? Don't think so. I think the boiler may be sized correctly but:

    every boiler mfg warns about "extensive piping and piping and pick up losses"

    If the system contains a lot of water and multiple zones it may at certain times force the boiler to be overloaded and cause it to run with lower than normal water temps that are causing condensation.

    In the old days we would put a low limit on to stop the circulators but a better fix is a bypass maybe a three way valve to control the boiler water temp, a few different ways to do this primary secondary etc.

    To cause the problems he's having this has to be running with low water temp for long periods of time

    That would be my bet also, low return temperatures for extended periods.

    A few temperature probes and an hours worth of bucket seat observation would easily confirm that.

    The best and least expensive protection for any and all conditions is a thermostatic return valve. It tracks and responds to temperature unlike bypass ball valves or bypass pumps without temperature control.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,988
    @hot rod , it's possible when the technicians visit the site everything is normal, but I doubt it. To me it would seem that this thing is running low water temps for a substantial period of time
    JDJ