condensate pump in hot attic - sweating?

ChrisJ

Hi all,

As stupid as it sounds, it looks like I'm going to end up putting a condensate pump up in the attic to deal with A\C condensate. Very long story, but this seems like the easiest way out.

My concerns are the pan sweating.

Has anyone dealt with this, and if so, how?

Robert O'Brien

Never seen one is a residential attic, gravity is free!

ChrisJ

Robert O'Brien said:

Never seen one is a residential attic, gravity is free!

Yeah.
Except in my case it's far from free, especially concerning time.


What about in a commercial setting?

Harvey Ramer

It is highly unlikely that the pump will ever sweat. But to be on the safe side, why not set it in the pan that goes under the airhandler.

ChrisJ

Harvey Ramer said:

It is highly unlikely that the pump will ever sweat. But to be on the safe side, why not set it in the pan that goes under the airhandler.

My primary drain is about 2" +- off of the pan.

Harvey Ramer

You're not putting risers under the airhandler to elevate it off the pan?

I guess if you are really worried about it you could buy a sheet of armeflex and insulate the pump basin.

ChrisJ

Harvey Ramer said:

You're not putting risers under the airhandler to elevate it off the pan?



I guess if you are really worried about it you could buy a sheet of armeflex and insulate the pump basin.

I had originally planned to hang the AHU on unistrut suspended from the rafters. That all died Saturday when I realized my ductwork was too low, and even worse, had no room to go up.

The AHU is sitting on 2x3s on the flat with 1/2" antivibration pads on top of them. That was the best I could do. I may try to sneak unistrut under it a different way in the future when I have time to play around, or, I may leave it.

The pump has to hang on a joist below the flooring, sadly along with the trap. I wanted the trap inside the pan, but I can't even have that.

I was thinking, of insulating the pan with 3" fiberglass + foil barrier just like I did the supply boxes. Leaving the top of the pump exposed of course.

JUGHNE

Could you gravity drain down the electric chase or better to open daylight outside with the line set?
A pump is just another thing to clean and possibly freeze up in the winter.
I usually build a deep trap down between floor joists, insulate over it so it gets heat from the ceiling below. Then go for the gravity drain down.
In my opinion being able to see the condensate outside or in the basement is a good performance indicator and assurances of positive draining. (still have the high water cut off of some sort).

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

Could you gravity drain down the electric chase or better to open daylight outside with the line set?
A pump is just another thing to clean and possibly freeze up in the winter.
I usually build a deep trap down between floor joists, insulate over it so it gets heat from the ceiling below. Then go for the gravity drain down.
In my opinion being able to see the condensate outside or in the basement is a good performance indicator and assurances of positive draining. (still have the high water cut off of some sort).

Not easily no.
The original plan was to go outside via the lineset cover, I have a 3/4" line with it already. Too bad it's an inch or too high and that's for zero pitch over 15 feet.

As far as freezing etc, in my attic, I highly doubt it. Not proud of it, but my attic runs warm.

That and I had plans to fill the trap with RV antifreeze every fall. Now, I'll just do the trap and pump. Things need to be maintained anyway, right?


This whole project has been a continuous series of problems. Nothing fits, and when you make something fit, it throws something else off.

HVAC guys do not have an easy job. It's been a real eye opener. I used to think forced air guys had it easy.

Pfft.


@Harvey Ramer @JUGHNE and everyone else that works in this field.

pecmsg

Avoid a pump at all costs but if you have to.

Wire in the safety to cut the compressor let the fan run so you know theirs a problem.
Keep a spare pump up there. Saves a trip on a weekend.

run the the poly tube with the line set, when the pump shuts down gravity will draw 90% of the water out of the sump.

hvacfreak2

Do yourself a favor and find a place to run a 3/4 inch schedule 40 pvc pipe to an interior location. A condensate pump in an attic is a direct path to regret man , you have worked too hard to go down that road.

EBEBRATT-Ed

any chance of getting a hole down through a closet to get to the basement? or a condensate line run in the joist bay out through the eve?

a pump is always problematic but I hate to see you drop it down between the joists. If you insulate it and keep an eye on it I gues it would be ok

bob_46

Do you have an auxiliary drain pan under the entire air handler ?

ChrisJ

No easy way down. At a later date my dad may be able to help do something but not at this time.

@bob Yes I do why do you ask?

ChrisJ

Curious what problems are seen with pumps in the attic?

Gordy

The same ones when they are in the basement. Except no one dwells in the attic as much as a basement. So the first sign the condensate pump took a crap is a wet spot on the ceiling.

Gordy

Gravity never fails unless the line plugs......

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

The same ones when they are in the basement. Except no one dwells in the attic as much as a basement. So the first sign the condensate pump took a crap is a wet spot on the ceiling.

This pump has a secondary float switch to shut the system down if the pump fails.

Hopefully, that will stop wet spots in case of failure.

ChrisJ

By the way, @Gordy when I asked what kind of problems, and you basically said "all of them". That's not really a helpful answer.

Steve Minnich

I wouldn't put a condensate pump in an attic and I've never seen one in an attic. There's got to be a way to get a 3/4" drain outside or to the basement. It's got to be one of the most failure-prone components in our industry.

ChrisJ

Stephen Minnich said:

I wouldn't put a condensate pump in an attic and I've never seen one in an attic. There's got to be a way to get a 3/4" drain outside or to the basement. It's got to be one of the most failure-prone components in our industry.

Ceiling cassettes for mini-splits.........

ChrisJ

Dan Foley

Run 3/4" through the band board and drip it into the gutter.

Mike

Listen to all the warnings. Pumps will clog in the summer, freeze in the winter, and the noise they make at 3am is not pleasant. Make it gravity drain. Do what ever it takes. Drill through the floor joists. Raise the a/h, knoch the roof rafters do whatever it takes. So you don't kick yourself in the rear. I learned that, " The only easy day, was yesterday ".

BobC

We used to have all kinds of problems with gravity drain line clogs from our environmental chambers plugging up in the summer. I'd use compressed air to blow the line out and then find a plug of florescent slime that got blown outside. I'm not sure what it was but I always washed my hands after doing that.

I started flushing the lines every few weeks with hydrogen peroxide and that seemed to keep the lines clear.

Bob

ChrisJ

BobC said:

We used to have all kinds of problems with gravity drain line clogs from our environmental chambers plugging up in the summer. I'd use compressed air to blow the line out and then find a plug of florescent slime that got blown outside. I'm not sure what it was but I always washed my hands after doing that.

I started flushing the lines every few weeks with hydrogen peroxide and that seemed to keep the lines clear.

Bob

That's one of the big reasons I decided on a pump, at least for now.

There's not going to be much worse than a gravity drain with little pitch.

ChrisJ

The best I can do right now, without a pump is a 15 foot 3/4" run with almost zero pitch and a running trap.

I could try it, and see if it drains.

It wouldn't be uphill, but it won't really be downhill until it exits the house.

Opinions? Thoughts?

This is a pull through air handler, so negative pressure at the evap.
I can put a deeper trap if I put it at the end of the 15' horizontal run, but not near the evap.

jumper

Skip the trap. Gives you more height. You can always have a trap lower down where you have room. Make the line out of something that won't break if it freezes. I'd just run it to the outside so that I can see if it's plugged.

If somebody asks you who skipped the trap,remember to say "I dunno"

ChrisJ

> @jumper said:
> Skip the trap. Gives you more height. You can always have a trap lower down where you have room. Make the line out of something that won't break if it freezes. I'd just run it to the outside so that I can see if it's plugged.
>
> If somebody asks you who skipped the trap,remember to say "I dunno"

I thought a trap is a must with a pull though evap?

ratio

If there's enough static resistance to the air getting sucked in via the drain, the air velocity will be low enough that the water will be able to get out. It's less than optimal, but it will work if there's enough pipe on the drain. (With packaged rooftops, as little as 10' with a few 90's is occasionally sufficient.) It won't stop determined vermin from possibly making an entrance, and you'll be losing conditioned air to outside. About the zero pitch, again there's a chance it'll work too. Might run with more water in the pan than with the proper pitch, but you should still be ok.

You're tight tight to the roof framing, there's no way to crank it up at all, not even a ½ in? I've seen 4" in 150' work, but that was crazy and I ordered biocide tabs on every PM & filter change.

ChrisJ

ratio said:

If there's enough static resistance to the air getting sucked in via the drain, the air velocity will be low enough that the water will be able to get out. It's less than optimal, but it will work if there's enough pipe on the drain. (With packaged rooftops, as little as 10' with a few 90's is occasionally sufficient.) It won't stop determined vermin from possibly making an entrance, and you'll be losing conditioned air to outside. About the zero pitch, again there's a chance it'll work too. Might run with more water in the pan than with the proper pitch, but you should still be ok.

You're tight tight to the roof framing, there's no way to crank it up at all, not even a ½ in? I've seen 4" in 150' work, but that was crazy and I ordered biocide tabs on every PM & filter change.

No room.

I'll try with no pitch, though hopefully I can get.........a little.
The running trap should work, it's shallow and both ends are the same height so I think I can sneak it in right at the ahu.

I also have a bottle of condensate pan tablets.

I just noticed the cover for the ahu is designed so I can't remove it once the drains are installed. Isn't that cute? I'll need to try and leave some room so I can at least pull the cover a few inches back. I hate it when things are made like that.

Speaking of this, why do they give so much tubing to braze to on the evaporator and condensing units? There was so much I didn't know what to do with all of that extra 1/16"..........

hvacfreak2

Longer tube brazing stub connections get damaged in shipping and handling.

Drain pan tablets : take 2 of these and call me in the morning. SMH forehead grip.

supplyhouse.com/EZ-Trap-83210-EZT-210-Standard-Switched-Cross-Trap-with-Brush

jumper

I've not seen it but an air powered eductor should be more trouble free than a condensate pump. Failed condensate pumps I have seen.

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

ratio said:

If there's enough static resistance to the air getting sucked in via the drain, the air velocity will be low enough that the water will be able to get out. It's less than optimal, but it will work if there's enough pipe on the drain. (With packaged rooftops, as little as 10' with a few 90's is occasionally sufficient.) It won't stop determined vermin from possibly making an entrance, and you'll be losing conditioned air to outside. About the zero pitch, again there's a chance it'll work too. Might run with more water in the pan than with the proper pitch, but you should still be ok.

You're tight tight to the roof framing, there's no way to crank it up at all, not even a ½ in? I've seen 4" in 150' work, but that was crazy and I ordered biocide tabs on every PM & filter change.

No room.

I'll try with no pitch, though hopefully I can get.........a little.
The running trap should work, it's shallow and both ends are the same height so I think I can sneak it in right at the ahu.

I also have a bottle of condensate pan tablets.

I just noticed the cover for the ahu is designed so I can't remove it once the drains are installed. Isn't that cute? I'll need to try and leave some room so I can at least pull the cover a few inches back. I hate it when things are made like that.

Speaking of this, why do they give so much tubing to braze to on the evaporator and condensing units? There was so much I didn't know what to do with all of that extra 1/16"..........

Any fitting Male into female tap in place and 3M electric tape. Now its removable!

ratio

pecmsg said:

Any fitting Male into female tap in place and 3M electric tape. Now its removable!

You joke (I hope), but that same job I mentioned, I had a condensate leak at an air handler. The male adapter was threaded in to the pan on the Trane, but was leaking. Odd that it would start after 15 years. Wait, Trane? Male adapter? Aren't Tranes a glue socket? The original installer, 15 bloomin' years ago, jammed male adapters into all the pans & it had been running like that for years.

JUGHNE

IMO, Chris should not have a problem with the cond pump.
He will remove it every fall and place it in the basement.
In order to really clean one, it should be removed and taken to a sink for a cleaning.
Just like living in Fortuna ND when you bring your car battery inside every night.
Unhooking the high level float switch will insure the AC will not be run without the pump in place.
Plus I am sure he will visit the attic often to check the pressure drop as he monitors the air filters. (Unless of course he will have another Magnahelic gauge mounted in the living room wall near the steam pressure gauge.)

ratio

Of course the Magnahelic is going in. But you have to verify the calibration from time to time, that'll entail a visit to the unit every month or so. He can service the pump at that time.

ChrisJ

Woah
Back the truck up.

The magnehelic is mounted in the wall over the thermostat. I don't need to travel to the attic to see my total static.

JUGHNE

CCTV sent to your phone would cover all these bases.
Or picture in picture on the flat screen in the liv room.

ChrisJ

@JUGHNE check your PMs

ChrisJ

So.

This is the best I can do, sans pump.
The union is because I can't remove the evap cover once the drain is screwed in. So, I made it so I can unscrew it.




Poured a tiny bit of water in it after the trap (just glued it, being cautious) and went out side and saw this.




I didn't pour much, maybe an ounce or two so if the pipe is holding some, it's not much over 15 feet of horizontal run.