Problem with gas meter?

jonquiljo

We've just finished renovating a house (orig build 2003) that we purchased and are completing a few small details and starting to move in. We have a natural gas water heater (77,000 btu), 2 gas furnaces (100,000 and 75,000 btu -zoned), and a gas range (approx 50,000 btu - not used but need for energy calculation). Northern California (SF Bay area) where climate is moderate to warm. As part of the remodel, the water heater was replaced (75 gal - 2016 code compliant), and one of the furnaces was replaced - long story (75,000 btu for 75,000 btu) 90% efficiency plus). The total potential gas usage of the house is about 375 btu/hr or 3.76 therms/hr. Being California, high efficiency is required everywhere in 2016, etc.

I tested the heating in the new house at 66 degrees; gas use was in the neighborhood of 10-12 Therms/day - and the weather was typical California moderate (shifting the temp up a few degressvat night that time of year). I have a crude "control" for testing as we still live in our original house 1 1/2 miles away - 3400 sq ft vs. 3700 Sq. Ft (new house), and built about the same time (2000) - but NOT modified with new systems. The old house (gas water heat and heating) only used 6-8 Therms/day with 2 people living in it set to 71 deg and 2x2 showers per day during the same period. From this I can roughly guess that we will easily have $1500-$2000 monthly gas bills in the new house - as opposed to $300-$400 in the old house (max).

I then shut down all the heating (no pilot). Even with only the water heater on, but not used - the new house measures 1 or 2 therms per day. This is the same gas draw as the gas water heater usage at the old house with 2 people taking 2 showers/day and the dishwaher (using hot water) run once a day- on days with the heat off. Something feels really wrong. There is not a leak as when I turned everything off for a few days, PG&E's online usage site said gas use was zero.

I called in a gas plumbing specialist yesterday (private co.), and he totally checked the new house piping and said it was perfectly done - with 1 1/4" inlet at the side of house and main gas lines inside at 1 1/4". He then looked at the gas meter (which has startled me and many contractors working on the house). It is a 1 1/4" "Sprague 400" meter stamped "PG&E - 1975" with a 1 1/4" inlet and outlet. The meter was therefore 28 years old when they put it on the original build in 2003 and is 43 years old now. The Sprage 400 was been modified in 2003 (and stamped as modified) with a smart meter tranmission unit, which PG&E says transmits data to them once a day. The plumber said to me what I had been thinking all along - that the meter was a commercial unit that was not designed to deal with low residential use. He also said that while the (new) house has a total capacity of 375 btu, a commecial meter would not measure very low to moderate usage of the gas systems in the house and could possibly give very high usage numbers as it's measurement threshold was much higher than we could ever use 95% of the time. It was made for a laundromat! The house is one of 6 very similar houses built at the same time in 2003, and likely the meters were installed at once. The plumber was surprised that I complained 3 times to PG&E - and PG&E kept telling me that I was wrong - to people who were not yet born when that meter was built. My neighbor there recently complained to me of "extremely high" gas usage. Most of the people on that street (6 houses) would not even notice a $2000 monthly heating bill, and certainly not complain.

The plumber told me to complain again, but likely PG&E will force me to prove the high usage to them - that for this house it warranted a higher capacity digital residential meter, not the antiquated monster on the house. He said even if I offered to buy a new meter they would not install it, and that he (the gas plumber) would back me up. I am surprised that I have to fight over a new meter - and that PG&E won't respond- other than to imply I am stupid. Any ideas as who to approach with what? I am tempted just to pay imflated bills like my neighbors - life is short. TIA.

2x_Tom

You could clock the meter. See if the reading is higher then the appliance input BTUs.
One therm a day doesn't sound so bad. A house that size probably has a 75 gallon heater (you mentioned pilots), a recirculating line and lots of pipe. That's a decent bit of standby loss. A couple things that will increase your standby loss. Are the hot and recirculating lines insulated? Not just in the boiler room but behind all the walls. Does the recirc have a properly setup aquastat? Do you have a mixing valve on the tank that's pulling 180 degree water into the recirc line during periods of non use?

lchmb

If your tempted to pay inflated bills why not just make a one time investment in a new meter and have your plumber install it? That would then rule out any doubt as to it being accurate

newagedawn

in CT every 7 yrs a new meter must be installed to make sure of proper metering,.Cali should have something like this also, check into it and you could get a free one installed by the gas company???

Jamie Hall

One might mention that sadly PG&E doesn't have the best reputation for reliability in a number of areas...

nicholas bonham-carter

Tom's suggestion is right on-do a search for"clocking the meter". This will involve turning off all the gas fed appliances, except for one whose input is known from its rating plate. Run that one while observing the cubic foot dial on your meter, and timing it. You may need to find out the BTU/cubic-feet of your local gas mix.--NBC

Tim McElwain

First of all gas companies refurbish and reuse meters as they tend to last a long time if changed every 7 to 10 years. That size meter is fine for what you have for equipment as it will handle up to 400,000 BTUs.

To clock the meter look for the 1/2 foot dial and let it make two complete rotations then divide what you get in seconds into 3600 (number of seconds in an hour) multiply that number times the BTU/cubic foot in your area. You can usually find that on your gas bill listed as say 1025 per ccf. That should closely match the input on the rating plate on your appliance.

By the way meters never run fast if anything as they get older they will slow down to the customers advantage.

Your so called gas specialist was incorrect in his findings. Take it from someone who has been in the gas industry for over 50 years.

jonquiljo

Yes, the house has a recirc unit, but when I checked yesterday, I realized that the contractor had left it unplugged. The original hot and recirc pipes were insulated, but some contractor could have removed some. Either way, the hot water has never been run yet. I need to hire a plumber to check everything out before we move in.

Well to those who say that meters should be and are rebuilt often, that is not true here. PG&E admits here that the meter was installed in 2003 - 14 years ago. I won't be surprised if the meter has ever been serviced. As someone said, PG&E has a habit of blowing people and thing up.

I called PG&E today to tell them to just give me a new meter. They were confused in that their records showed the new-er house having a 4 dial residential meter. I told them it had 6 and that it was a 400 class meter. Totally confused they are sending a tech out Thursday to check - they won't take my word for it. It doesnt really give me a lot of confidence that anything is right.

My duspicion is the pulse output device which has a PG&E 2003 label on it. The plastic cover is so sun damaged that about half the dials cannot be read - at least by me. That rules out any testing. I did look and notice that all neighbors have updated (or newer) pulse output devices. My house seems to have been left out. The whole thing makes no sense. A NEW 400 class meter will be accurate down to about 4 cu ft/hr. Something from 1975? I don't want to even guess. Technically, it should work, but it really matters whether the pulse output modification really is functional. 2003 was early on for a "smart meter." PG+ E would not answer me when I asked when the batteries were changed. Lithium batteries were not so great in 2003. Basically, I just don't know anything about this setup and PG+E seems to know very little too.

The bottom line is that I will badger them until they give me a new meter. If they have no service records then I don't want that thing on my house. They can blow up someone else. I have no problem paying for the new meter, though they'd have to replace it if I "opted out." The pulse unit has seen better days, the meter has been around quite a while. It's true, some states force replacements every 7 years. This company is alway in the headlines for outrageous rate increases and for old installations that fail. As was mentioned, CT does, as does Mass. A new 400 class will likely be accurate since it has a 100:1 range. Tim McElwain, if you've been in that business 50 years ... how wide a range did gas meters have 40 years ago? And how accurate was pulse output technology and transmission in 2003? The fact that their gas meters send only one pulse a day says a lot. Even cellular technology back then was crude. Its not about the billing, its about the junk the use to determine those numbers. They updated the electric meter in 2013 -10 years later. It will be interesting when they go out to the meter if they notice that the meter looks its age, the pulse meter is seriously sun damaged plastic, and all the seals on both meters have long since fallen off.

jonquiljo

Thanks

2x_Tom said:

You could clock the meter. See if the reading is higher then the appliance input BTUs.

One therm a day doesn't sound so bad. A house that size probably has a 75 gallon heater (you mentioned pilots), a recirculating line and lots of pipe. That's a decent bit of standby loss. A couple things that will increase your standby loss. Are the hot and recirculating lines insulated? Not just in the boiler room but behind all the walls. Does the recirc have a properly setup aquastat? Do you have a mixing valve on the tank that's pulling 180 degree water into the recirc line during periods of non use?

California Title 24, aside from bankrupting more people than the last recession, forced us to bring almost everything to 2013 code - and then some. We had to convert almost everything to permanent HE lighting fixtures ( no screw in LED bulbs in most cases), you name it. Plumbing had to brought to current "California" code changing every fixture in the house to low flow, and strict insulation requirements. All plumbing comes through the sub-floor from the crawlspace. Everything, including HVAC ducting has heavy insulation requirements because the sub floor is really insulated from the habitable part of the house. The only stupid thing is that the water heater had to be an "ultra low NOX" unit that will only run at .60 efficiency factor. The recirc pump just gets in the way and we don't have a drought here anymore. Time for it to go.

It makes no sense in that our other house is used for 2 long showers/day for two people with an equivalent (almost new) water heater and the water heater uses less gas per day than the one in the unoccupied house. But I am not about to waste any more time proving to them that the meter and pulse are very very old.

PG&E has raised rates enormously in the past couple of years. I am lucky in that I can afford it. Most people cannot, and it is a real hardship for them. It is said that PG&E is trying to recoup their losses from the San Bruno explosion a few years bank. They got a hefty $1B+ fine and likely are being sued by all the families. I don't think PG&E is on the most loved utilities list, and the shareholders should bear the burden of the company's mistakes, not the public. Solar has given them a run for their money here and they can't do much but try to compete. So to replace a meter that cost them a few hundred is not a big deal to them.

jonquiljo

Just as an FYI, Through persistent complaints, I got PG&E to replace my gas meter. While thet replaced it with another 400 class (it was too much work for them to re-plumb a smaller meter, I did get a brand new Honeywell (American meter) 400 class meter.

Apparently I was right. Instead of using 1 1/2 thers a day to maintain how water (with recirc disconnected), it uses 1 therm every 3 days. My guess is that the ACLARA pulse output module was not interfacing with the meter correctly. While they denied having "smart meters" in 2003 this module clearly looked very old. My neighbors with old sprague meters have newer ACLARA MTU'S - but still on old (1975) meters. But mine was clearly very old - very old - falling apart old. I don't know how my meter ended up with such an old MTU. Are these things installed in the field? Or is the meter/mtu intalled as a single unit. PG&E didn't want to tell me anything. I did get insight as to what PG&E does to "refurbish" things - spray gray paint over all rusted components!

Covexus

I am curious to know how the new meter is billing once you've had it installed long enough to get some data.

Also, as was sort of explained already, the 400 size meter isn't necessarily for commercial customers, but is just used based off the customer gas load. Technically an American AC-250 meter size might work with your home, but it would only have a capacity of 375,000 Btu/hr at a 1" WC pressure drop over the meter. This pressure drop might not work out depending on pipe sizing in the house, distance to the appliances, and pressure required at the appliances. The meter size shouldn't affect your gas bill either way. With a diaphragm meter one chamber fills up with a predetermined amount of gas while the second chamber empties.

There are gas meters that are 40+ years old and still measuring accurately, because the chamber sizes never change. It is possible the gears lock up and have no recording or lower recording, but don't usually increase in reading. However, the equipment for transmitting the reads could definitely be incorrect. Normally when that happens you can tell something is wrong when the physical dials are not matching up with the electronic reads (which you might be able to see on your gas bill). The electronic reads could have been programmed wrong. I've seen meters with an incorrect factor programmed on the electronic equipment where it was either doubling the bill or cutting it in half.

Also, somebody mentioned buying your own gas meter. You wouldn't be able to replace the gas company meter with your new meter, but it is possible to have your own gas meter inside the home if you are in doubt. Some larger commercial companies will have their own meter inside their building connected to their own piping. This is either done at convenience to keep a close eye on their usage or just to double check the gas companies meter.