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Carbon Monoxide

One dead, 6 unconscious, 14 total hospitalized from hotel (Quality Inn) pool heater. 12-14 year old birthday party. CO alarms mandatory in new hotels in Michigan with pool heaters but not old ones?? That's what killed three people last year in Boone NC. That is why every time I check into a hotel I check out any indoor pool area with my personal CO monitor.

How does improper ventilation happen all of a sudden. or is that just a dumb guess?

Why does the media or whoever quote OSHA Standards(industrial Plants) or EPA Standards(Outdoors) as levels acceptable indoors.

Doctor interviewed and said he thinks kids are poisoned faster than adults because they have a higher heart rate and smaller body. He doesn't know that? Of course swimming wouldn't increase the heart rate any?

I do believe there is a hotel management company that is going to be paying some substantial dollars in civil law suit claims and maybe a plumber?. Pretty sure CO detectors are a lot cheaper.

Comments

  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 12,923
    Proving once again that You Can't Fix Stupid!
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  • Mad Dog_2Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 3,455
    BIG SHAME! Wouldn't be surprised if they had an outdoor pool heater in the pump room. Mad Dog
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,618
    I think it unfair to expect a bunch of teenagers, or even their parents, to bring a really good CO monitor with them everywhere and know how to interpret the results. Not a big-box store C detector.

    I do not bring an MD and a Ph.D. in food technology to inspect the kitchen of every restaurant aI go to when I want a hamburger or a milk-shake, and I should not have to do that either.

    When an hotel-motel, hospital, movie theatre, or whatever has a death, or even hospitalization because of CO leakage, they should be fined or sued enough to pretty-much put them out of business. Perhaps the manager should get real jail time for third-degree murder.
  • LeonardLeonard Member Posts: 827
    edited April 2017
    Just stupid to not vent a heater.
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 424
    Based on previous court cases involving death, if you plead stupidity or ignorance then you are not liable.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 9,661
    edited April 2017

    I think it unfair to expect a bunch of teenagers, or even their parents, to bring a really good CO monitor with them everywhere and know how to interpret the results. Not a big-box store C detector.

    I do not bring an MD and a Ph.D. in food technology to inspect the kitchen of every restaurant aI go to when I want a hamburger or a milk-shake, and I should not have to do that either.

    When an hotel-motel, hospital, movie theatre, or whatever has a death, or even hospitalization because of CO leakage, they should be fined or sued enough to pretty-much put them out of business. Perhaps the manager should get real jail time for third-degree murder.

    Agreed.
    I expect and honestly assumed all hotels were required to have such devices installed and inspected.

    I would also expect pool heaters, water heaters etc to be installed properly and inspected as well. It appears I'm the fool though because I keep seeing these reports and it's unbelievable.

    I realize the standard CO detectors we use in homes and such aren't the best or most sensitive, but they are far better than nothing. I have a networked smoke\CO system in my home, one of which is a foot from my power vented WH and only a few feet from the boiler.

    Apparently, I can't expect the same if I go and stay at a respectable hotel. Then again, I also have my appliances vented properly.

    I personally don't like breathing burner fart. I don't care how clean it's burning or how little CO it's producing. I want it outside.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Member Posts: 4,108
    I would like to know how these facilities maintain an insurance policy without the devices? My grandfather owns a condo at the beach in a small 4 unit building. Their insurance requires 2 functioning smoke detectors and CO alarms in every unit all interconnected from unit to unit. They do a yearly insurance inspection on the building and verify the operation of all equipment (water sensors, CO/smoke alarms etc.).

    So a serious question how does a hotel not get held to the same standard when a little 4 unit condo (all privately owned) can't? Are the insurance companies that shady? Is the hotel paying them off? I seriously believe something isn't right.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
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  • ericmmffericmmff Member Posts: 13
    What is the best Co detecor.
    Which one do you sell your customers.
    Most don't appear to be sensitive enough.
    I've been using the Kidde C3010D.
  • Sal SantamauraSal Santamaura Member Posts: 279
    ericmmff said:

    What is the best Co detecor.

    Which one do you sell your customers.

    Most don't appear to be sensitive enough.
    ...

    I have no customers (homeowner here) but consider this the best:

    https://www.aeromedix.com/co-experts-2017-ultra-low-level-carbon-monoxide-detector

    Its immediate predecessor is what's in my house.
  • LeonardLeonard Member Posts: 827
    edited April 2017
    Just a homeowner/engineer here. I have a $25 Kidde night hawk home unit. Got it because it has a ppm display. But it's slow and doesn't respond unless CO > 30 ppm.
    http://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/co-alarms/kn-copp-b-lp/

    specs are....... Per UL 2034 requirements, the CO sensor will not alarm to levels of CO below 30 ppm and will alarm in the following time range when exposed to the corresponding levels of CO.

    70 ppm CO concentration 60 – 240 minutes
    150 ppm CO concentration 10 – 50 minutes
    400 ppm CO concentration 4 – 15 minutes

    List of CO levels and effects, just down a page.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
  • ericmmffericmmff Member Posts: 13
    It should be illegal to sell that junk.
    I've been carbon monoxided twice and it is no joke.
  • A.J.A.J. Member Posts: 257
    National Comfort Institute out of Cleveland has a low level CO monitor 3000 that we install with every new furnace. Its a cheap extra layer of protection .
  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Member Posts: 4,231
    I have three CO Experts detectors in my house. I have two in the training center. I carry a belt CO detector most of the time and especially when I enter and stay at hotels. Never take a room near the boiler room above, below, or next to one. There is one hotel in North Carolina that I used to stop at on the way to Florida until I started picking up CO in various locations in the hotel. Hotel Manager was not impressed and refused to call anyone. So I called local fire department they came in and gave a clean bill of health. They claimed my detector was faulty. Roughly a year later five people overcome in that hotel.

    Watch out for indoor pools with the pool heater in a brick building in the same area as the pool. Do not stay in the second floor in those hotels as the flue gases from the pool heater will be pulled in by the air conditioner. Five construction workers staying at a hotel were killed by CO in that very set up.
  • LeonardLeonard Member Posts: 827
    Does that NCI 3000 monitor have a fast response time so you can walk thru a building to find the CO leak ?
  • Tim McElwainTim McElwain Member Posts: 4,231
    My Testo belt unit is a fast response unit as is my CO Experts Low Level detector which both alarm at 9 PPM with an audible alarm and read out on the screen of the detector. I also use a combination unit from Sensit which measures O2, CO and methane for natural gas detection it can also pick up Hydrogen Sulfide.
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 424
    Leonard the NCI has a 30 second response time so it would not be good for instant testing. It is also restricted to Certified Contractors.

    The Sensorcom Industrial Pro personal monitor is the best. You can find them online for about $159. It vibrates, has lights and beeps(not real loud). Battery is changeable and if they are calibrated yearly you can get them to last 3-4 years. Most others that are more expensive are lucky to make it for 2 years.
  • LeonardLeonard Member Posts: 827
    edited April 2017
    At 30 sec the NCI sounds good enough for my purposes if it's cheap enough, what do they typically run? Would be nice to have something better than consumer grade for my house. I do some HVAC and boiler work , and I'm Freon certified, I buy wholesale.
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 424
    The government has made several attempts to outlaw any type of CO detector that goes off below 70ppm. At first they stated alarms and then they said any device that alerts below 70ppm should be banned. Fortunately that did not happen. However, if enough of these Low Level Monitors get out there and more nuisance calls arise, there may be a law to ban them. Then are several other Low Levels Monitors that are sold on the internet to about anyone.

    Our monitors are restricted to our "CO/Comb Certified" contractors. They are the ones that have to respond to them not the EMT or utility.

    I think you would be better off with the Sensorcom Industrial Pro.
  • Steve MinnichSteve Minnich Member Posts: 2,358
    The SensorCon Industrial Pro is what we wear on our belts. I never timed the response time but its really quick. When we walk into a building or mechanical room with a CO problem, we know right now.

    I caused a bit of a problem in one of our supply houses recently. Back in the warehouse, the CO is always up around 35-40 with the forklifts running all day. There's at least 10 people working back there every day so I showed one of the drivers my monitor reading. He didn't know what it was or what the reading meant so I told him. Suggested he mention this to the boss and get adequate ventilation back there. Boss gave me the evil eye for a while but he must have stuck a fan or two back there somewhere because the readings have dropped considerably.

    Had another one recently in an 18 unit apartment building. My monitor shot up over 200 as soon as I walked in the building and went up even further when I get in the boiler room. Shut it down immediately in such a way that only a pro would know how to get it operational again, opened all the windows, and the owner checked on all the tenants. Owner was a Chicago fireman too. Go figure? My bid was "too high" for the repairs but I felt good being able to show them tangible results of the problem.
    Steve Minnich
    Tell me I can't, and I'll show you I can.
  • CanuckerCanucker Member Posts: 529
    captainco said:

    The government has made several attempts to outlaw any type of CO detector that goes off below 70ppm. At first they stated alarms and then they said any device that alerts below 70ppm should be banned. Fortunately that did not happen. However, if enough of these Low Level Monitors get out there and more nuisance calls arise, there may be a law to ban them. Then are several other Low Levels Monitors that are sold on the internet to about anyone.

    Our monitors are restricted to our "CO/Comb Certified" contractors. They are the ones that have to respond to them not the EMT or utility.

    I think you would be better off with the Sensorcom Industrial Pro.

    Who is lobbying for these to be made illegal? They should be suitably and publicly embarrassed for it. It sounds like a case of "shooting the messenger" when the suggestion of banning low level alarms is made. I hate that you're probably right about them being banned instead of solving the root cause of the problem
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • Mike MMike M Member Posts: 21
    Question... Is combustion testing required by law, if the CO is 4000 PPM and being exhausted outside, how is this dangerous to anyone, especially on power vented units. If someone is injured by CO, the manufacturer Im sure gets sued, the service company possibly if neglect can be proven, but what about the mechanic that follows company SOP, especially when companies don't provide these combustion analyzers. We are a medium sized company and don't have one company wide, and the owner says, they haven't been required by law the last 35 years, nobody has been using them, we aren't about to start now unless we are compelled by law.
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 424
    Combustion testing is not required by law but is a choice of credible and intelligent contractors. It is impossible to know any fuel burning appliance is operating safe or correctly without a combustion analyzer. However, until the government mandates it, it won't happen. Some people prefer the government make all their decisions and do all their thinking.

    Manufacturers rarely get blamed or sued for CO poisoning. It is always the company that did the work. The company does pay the civil suit but in the case of injury or death the person on the job goes to jail, not the owner.

    I am not sure I would admit to doing things wrong for 35 years just because nobody made me do it right. Wait, it's not wrong because we don't have too!

    It is amazing how misinformed consumers are about how qualified all HVAC contractors might be.

    A license means nothing. Most cars accidents are caused by licensed drivers. 90% of CO deaths occur from furnaces that were installed or service by licensed contractors.

    Just like another post on here earlier, a consumer was getting CO poisoned and couldn't find any contractor in Brooklyn with an analyzer. It is shameful and after 47 years in the industry, quite embarrassing.
  • GordyGordy Member Posts: 9,264
    "Not Required by law" funny how that phrase makes people not do things when it's in their favor until the law makes them do things not in their favor because the afore mentioned action has caused another law to be broken.
  • captaincocaptainco Member Posts: 424
    I am pretty sure everyone has a refrigerant reclaimer because its the LAW! I am sure the homeless are grateful.
  • Most of the public doesn't understand the issue. I work in environmental health and safety for the semiconductor industry and find it difficult to educate employees about chemical hazards. It seems the more I try to teach them the more superstitious some of them become. Of course we also have the problem that the exact same hazard in the workplace (e.g. a boiler releasing flue gas into the building) is never equivalent to the same hazard in a person's home, due to humans being willing to accept huge risks if they feel like they are in control of the situation.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 5,706
    edited January 2018
    Massachusetts is supposed to be a pretty restrictive state. When a boiler gets installed you have the necessary gas or oil and venting & combustion air and electrical inspections. Then the state usually does the first inspection on the pressure vessel and the insurance co takes over after that.

    Couple of summers ago we cleaned a couple of Clever Brooks hot water boilers 200 & 300 horsepower. The insurance Co inspector showed up while we were half way done. One boiler was a spare that never ran...just standby.

    We had the first boiler (the one they run) cleaned and opened up he looked at nothing. I had started opening up the 2d standby boiler and he asked me "what are you opening that one up for"

    lax, lax, lax

    So much for inspections
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