Banging spitting vents

jackzuroff · February 2017

I purchased a vacant home that sat for 3 years before I purchased it. Home was built in 1920, and the boiler was changed to gas around 2011. The steam heat "works" besides two baseboards that were added when the previous owner made two additions to the house. On an average heating cycle, each baseboard vent spits out about a gallon of water, so needless to say the lwc shuts off constantly. They bang a lot too. I hired a heating contractor to look at it, and he did 1 cleaning. I had him come back he put more chems in and wants the system to run for a week and then have him come back.

I would just like to get a second opinion, and see if this is the right approach, and I completely understand wanting to verify a clean boiler first when there is no history on the home.

neilc · February 2017

post a few pictures of the boiler, and the pipes above to the ceiling,
also the pressure control and low water cut off,

Jamie Hall · February 2017

Oh boy.

First, chemicals -- except for steamaster for pH control -- are not really a good idea in a steam boiler; they often cause foaming and extreme water carryover, if nothing worse. So they need to go.

Second, if the pigtail for the pressure control wasn't cleaned, it should be.

Third, if the pressure control is set for anything more than 1.8 psi cutout and .8 psi cutin, which I wouldn't be surprised to see, it's too much pressure. Set it at 1.8 psi for the cutout and .8 psi for the cutin.

Get that organised and then check those vents again. If they are still spitting, they're likely not working and will need to be replaced.

If the banging is still present after the pressure is down and the boiler is filled with nothing but clean water, start looking for pipes or radiators which are not pitched properly to drain.

You may want to be sure that your contractor adjusts the burner properly, using correct test equipment, while you are at it.

There may be more -- probably will be -- to getting the system to operate correctly and silently, which it should, but this is a start.

And please report back!

jackzuroff · February 2017

I gotta find a site to upload pics, and I'll get right on that. It's just the two "new" baseboards. Everything else in the house are regular radiators. I've changed the vents and propped up the ends of the baseboards with some 2x4s on the one and a small bucket under the other to catch the water. One of them has been leaking a while, as the water rotted the subfloor under it

jackzuroff · February 2017

EBEBRATT-Ed · February 2017

also, using baseboard on steam is problematic if not done right but can be done successfully. If its 1 pipe steam you really have to pitch the baseboard element a lot inside the baseboard enclosure (if it's copper fin) back towards the supply pipe. Or use a return line on the opposite end piped into a wet return (below the boiler water line.) In that case pitch the baseboard away from the supply.

JUGHNE · February 2017

Am I the only one so old school that I don't want to sign in with e-mail account to see someone else's pictures?
There is a way to post directly here.....even I can do it (most of the time anyway).

jackzuroff · February 2017

Abracadabra · February 2017

JUGHNE said:
Am I the only one so old school that I don't want to sign in with e-mail account to see someone else's pictures?

Nope.. you aren't alone

I passed on trying to view the pics.. Don't understand why people have difficulty clicking the little picture icon and just drag and dropping

jackzuroff · February 2017

i have a script blocker installed, and that option didn't show up until I turned it off for this site. my apologies.

nicholas bonham-carter · February 2017

I also am old school, so have not seen the pictures, which could have been easily posted directly here.
This problem is no doubt due to overpressure/bad piping. A good low pressure gauge needs to be installed to diagnose this problem, and we need some directly posted pictures of the boiler piping.
A large amount of water seems to have been thrown up into the supplies, causing the low-lying convectors to vomit large amounts of water.--NBC

jackzuroff · February 2017

do you see the pics? 4 posts up. I used the uploader on this page.

Neild5 · February 2017

Surprised the copper pipe didn't disappear in a vacant house.

Fred · February 2017

That copper pipe in your last picture: if that's the pipe that feeds those baseboards, or any radiators, for that matter, is the cause for your hammer. That downward pitch and then upward swing holds a pool of water that can't return to the boiler. When steam hits that water it will hammer like crazy. Also, dump the chemical filled boiler water and refill the boiler with clean water and maybe one or two Steamaster tablets, nothing else. Copper is not a great idea for steam and that pipe looks like it may be leaking a bit also.

JUGHNE · February 2017

Fred, I think that the camera was twisted for that last shot.
I think you can see the bottom of two floor joists with the floorboards above.

jackzuroff · February 2017

the last picture is a small leak at the joint, and that pipe runs up to the second floor. The picture where the pipe runs toward the cement stairs feeds one of the problem radiators

jackzuroff · February 2017

I also took nicholas's advice and purchased a new pressure gauge. I put a patch on the leak, and when that cures, I'll take a look at what the gauge is reading.

Fred · February 2017

JUGHNE said:
Fred, I think that the camera was twisted for that last shot.
I think you can see the bottom of two floor joists with the floorboards above.

Thanks, I see it now.

jackzuroff · February 2017

so your recommendation would be for the baseboard to replace the runs with steel/iron pipe?

I've been checking the pressure gauge, and it's not moving, but the water in the glass is bouncing around.

Fred · February 2017

jackzuroff said:
so your recommendation would be for the baseboard to replace the runs with steel/iron pipe?

I've been checking the pressure gauge, and it's not moving, but the water in the glass is bouncing around.

Ideally the baseboard would be replaced with cast iron radiators.
When Nick said put a new Low pressure gauge on there, he meant a 0-3 or 0-5 PSI gauge. A 0-30 PSI gauge is just not sensitive enough to see actualy pressure in a residential steam boiler, which should run at no more than 2 PSI Max. Leave the 0 -30 PSI gauge as well as local codes require them even though they are useless.

jackzuroff · February 2017

best I could get at the local plumbing supply was a 0-15

Fred · February 2017

This is the one most of us use:
http://www.valworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-3-psi

jackzuroff · February 2017

so, leave the piping as is, cut the elbow, add a male adapter and valve and buy two rads on craigslist, and call it a day?

Fred · February 2017

Well, there will likely be other leaks on those copper pipes from time to time. The constant expansion/contraction will likely continue to break those solder joints. Ideally you'd replace all the steam carrying pipes with black steel threaded pipe but that may be at a time when the boiler needs replacement.
- Make sure the pig tail that the Pressuretrol is mounted on (looped pipe) is clean. if it is clogged it will let pressure build.
- Take the cover off of that Pressuretrol and make sure the white wheel inside is set to "1" facing the front of the unit.
- Spewing a gallon of water out of those vents has to be resolved. I'm not sure replacing those baseboards with cast iron rads will fix that. Are those baseboards pitched back towards the supply pipe? If not pitch them and see if that fixes it.
- Also check those vents. What type are they? They must not be closing when steam hits them (if steam hits them with that much water).
- Get those chemicals out of the boiler and skim it if the water in the sight glass bounces a lot (more than 1/2 to 3/4").

jackzuroff · February 2017

the one baseboard is about 10ft long and i have the supply end propped up an inch and the vent end up about 6-8. The other I have the supply up about an inch and the vent end about a foot (small bucket under the vent)

I've replaced the vents a bunch of times with cheap home depot ones to maid-mists to gortons and they all do the same.

My boiler guy cleaned out the lines to the pressure gauge about a month ago. The line was completely caked. I haven't had a chance to take it apart again to see if it's clogged again.

Fred · February 2017

Something is seriously wrong if you have them pitched that much and still leaking that much. Where are you located? Maybe we can suggest a Steam Pro from who participates on this site to do an actual assessment for you and tell you what needs to be done to resolve those issues.

jackzuroff · February 2017

Haledon, NJ (Northern NJ about 1/2 hour from NYC)

jackzuroff · February 2017

You can see, that on the supply end, I have a coffee mug propping that up and then a 3 gallon bucket on the vent side.

Abracadabra · February 2017

Those baseboard won't work on steam. They are made for hot water. Whoever installed them for steam didn't know what they were doing. If you insist on keeping them you'll need to pipe the far side of the supply side back into a main downstream of the supply side (assuming this is one pipe steam). @EBEBRATT-Ed said this, but it looks like his comments have been missed.

jackzuroff · February 2017

Ok. So there's general concencus that what's there is wrong? (I'm also guessing that my boiler guy isn't that great.)

The piping for that baseboard is accessible (although that's where the rats were ... yuck ...) from the basement where the previous homeowner made an addition. The other problem baseboard, I have to rip up the subfloor because the water coming out of it completely rotted the plywood, which connects to an accessible location in the basement.

So that brings me back to what I asked before. Would I be better off rerunning the lines in steel and picking up some cast iron rads off of craigslist and installing them?

MilanD · February 2017

Yes. Get rads crom CL and repipe in black iron. They'll heat much better.

Jamie Hall · February 2017

You mention northern New Jersey? There are a number of steam guys in that area, as I recall. Try @Dave0176 or @EzzyT for starters/

EzzyT · February 2017

@jackzuroff send me a private message and we can discuss more about resolving the issues you have

Banging spitting vents

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