New vs. Old Boiler Energy Use Differences Suprising to Us

BobC

@Sailah i agree the McMaster Carr website is fantastic. i have the '99 catalog here and often refer to it when I need something out of the ordinary.

The pricing is usually fair and the delivery and shipping costs are great.

Bob

cubicacres

Maybe the screws we saw were the center of the valve stems. Some have the bottom of the handle (small rectangle piece of metal) on top of the stem where the metal handle broke off.

Are the pieces of the valve from top to bottom (can't quite make it out in this pic):


1. valve handle
2. stem with screw to hold handle on
3. packing nut
4. gate

If we get down to re-packing the nut, is there anything else anyone has had to do (other than a full replacement of the entire valve on occassion) if gate won't close, etc?

Fred

There is a composite/rubber disc inside the valve that actually closes against the valve seat to close the valve. It is designed to wabble on the end of the stem so as to properly seat. Usually, on old valves you will find the composite/rubber disc has cracked or broken due to years of steam exposure. If there are occasions when you have the bonnet off of the valve, it makes sense to replace that disc so that the valve will actually function and close completely but I wouldn't take any valves apart just to do that unless you're a gluten for punishment.

MilanD

I second Fred's notion. It's quite easier to replace the whole valve than mess with trying to pry (unscrew) open the bonnet... 50 years later, those come apart only with some serious muscle, big wrenches... actually, no, ... they don't come apart.

cubicacres

We tried using graphite packing on the unit 1 bathroom suspected leaking rad valve, and will do the same with the unit 4 BR rad valve we saw leaking ourselves tomorrow. We couldn't get the screw off since the handwheel fell off and just a metal rectangle section remains. Is it necessary to take the nut off, or can you wrap 2-3 rotations of graphite packing on the nut threads & push it up there under the nut on the shaft while twisting the nut down to seal the gaps?

Still using 1 gal/water every 3-5 days, so for the 5 hr run time/day this week with warmer weather down from 8hrs/day looks like our leak is consistent per hour of daily run time.

We tried to test the accuracy of the water meter by shutting off the boiler for a few minutes, blowing down about 2 gallons of water in our 5 gal. bucket and waiting 15 more minutes for the boiler to cool before adding about 2 gallons of street water holding down the manual fill button until it matched the gauge glass level pre-blow down and read 2 more gallons, so we feel the VXT-24 & Safguard are calibrated pretty accuratly.

Took off the near-boiler drop-header insulation to see if there was another union leaking like the other drop-header & main rise a few inches away had (not sure what that first main rise section is called) and we saw the drop-header on the end had a reducer/enlarger from the 3 in drop to the 4 in riser (just like my avatar photo, so I should have checked that first ). No leaks seen there. After we pack that next leaky rad valve, we'll check those old stained main sections of insulation and run the boiler to see if they still leak.

We used the tekmar 279 test mode "max heat" to run the boiler after turning the vents upside down in our tennants unit as advised to verify no rad sections heating up-thanks for that tip. Then noticed tekmar ran a long time (20 min in 45 deg weather), so we shut boiler off off and now it doesn't have those arrows back for establishing steam, heat cycle, lockout diff, etc. on the tekamr screen Have you ever encountered this before, or did our tekmar short out?

Fred

You should be able to take a small pick tool and pull any old packing out from around the stem and use that tool to push new packing in around the stem. I wouldn't try to use the nut to force it down around the stem. that will likely end up cracking the nut. I can't speak to the Tekmar but is there a "resume" or "reset" on it? Someone else will help you with that, I'm sure.

cubicacres

We didn't see any old packing come out with our pick as we shoved our graphite packing up to the top of the nut area and screwed it down around most of the rope. About 1/3 of the rope fell out near the bottom of the nut as we lowered it around the graphite rope on the threads. We cut that part off, thinking twice around might be enough. I guess our first time wasn't as easy as we were expecting.

cubicacres

For the tekmar, we did heat the building a few degrees over the target in "max heat test mode", so it would make sense it may not need to start the next heat cycle for a while. Maybe this is why we didn't see any arrows return to indicate hat stage of the heat cycle it's in? We're concerned it may not function properly if something shorted out with the switching the boiler/tekmar power on/off in a few seconds like we did.

Fred

Two wraps may be plenty. I notice some are called graphite rope and others are called graphite string but I didn't check to see what the diameters were. I'm sure it comes in different diameters.

cubicacres

Many of our rad shut-off valves have a "1" stamped on them, so I'm assuming that's a 1 inch valve to help us size replacements in case we need a few. A few had no number markings, just a triangle shape, "RCo" logo, an "H" letter where we'd like to see that size ,marking (3/4, 1=more common for us, 1 1/4, 1 1/2, etc.). They look about the same size riser & spud for all of them except the front hall one which looks larger. Would a pocket rocket tool be able to verify this if we measure the risers & spuds diameter from the outside? Or is there another location other than the front or back that has the size stamped somewhere?

Fred

Most of mine are either 1.25" or 1.5" some are stamped, others are not. I Can pretty much tell the size by looking at the diameter of the supply pipe they are mounted on. If you can measure the diameter of the pipe and convert that to the inside diameter you can figure the valve size. Another easy way is to go to your plumbing supply and buy a 3/4", 1", 1.25" and 1.5" Escutcheon (cover plate that goes around the pipe , on the floor) , you can put them on a ring and use them as a gauge, when in doubt. They fit around the pipe snugly so one that fits around a 3/4" pipe is a 3/4" valve, one that fits around a 1.25" pipe is a 1.25" valve, etc. Just make sure there are no bushings screwed into the bottom of the valve that will throw your valve size off, as it relates to the spud it is connected to.

cubicacres

Thanks. Is the supply pipe riser always the same diameter as the spud/short nipple pipe on the other end of the valve?

We checked our tekmar just now, and it seems to be running fine with the arrows back where they should be (lockout differential just now). It was 71 in the indoor sensor room with a target of 68 when we switched off the power, so maybe it had to cool down for an hour or two before starting up a cycle and indicating where it was in that cycle like it always did before we hit the power switch.

Jamie Hall

cubicacres said:

Thanks. Is the supply pipe riser always the same diameter as the spud/short nipple pipe on the other end of the valve?
...

Nope. It's not that unusual to have a bushing (or, less common, increaser) on the input side of radiator valve. Just to make it more interesting.

MilanD

> @Jamie Hall said:
> Thanks. Is the supply pipe riser always the same diameter as the spud/short nipple pipe on the other end of the valve?
> ...
>
>
> Nope. It's not that unusual to have a bushing (or, less common, increaser) on the input side of radiator valve. Just to make it more interesting.

My experience: if the valve is 1", spud is 1" and fpt on the valve body is also 1". What happens before or after a valve can be anyone's guess.

cubicacres

Tonight we took off the unit 4 BR rad supply valve packing nut we saw leaking last time. The shaft wiggled around and seemed quite lose. Our tenant confirmed the noise sounded like he heard before, as we clanked the shaft around loosley with our hand, so that may have been the steam moving the shaft they complained about as being noisy.

We removed a little tan colored old packing (maybe teflon?) and wrapped our graphite packing rope around the nut 2 times & pushed it up into the nut before lowering it down the shaft. It looked like it was not caught on the threads,-hopefully it made it to the base of the shaft. It felt tighter and we ran the boiler for about 10 minutes, twice before it shut off on low water each time, then max heat setting on the tekmar for about 20 minutes waiting for the maid-o-mist radiator vent to close. It never closed even though the whole rad heated up. We noticed steam coming out of the always open vent, so does this suggest our vent is too large or broken after a week of use?

We also saw a drop of water leaking to a wet spot from the unit 4 kitchen rad spud union at the bottom side. We can try tightening that union between the rad & supply valve, or is it better to try to replace the whole valve? We ordered an 8 pack of 1in valves a few days ago, so we should have them soon.

The sight glass is chocolate brown, and goes from the fill line about halfway up the gauge glass on startup, to almost empty (1-2 inches lower) in about 10 seconds, then sits about 50% down from the fill line and moves around a while before lowering down and cutting off on low water about 10+ minutes later. Any thoughts on if this movement means a pressure difference, still a dirty boiler, or something else? We have some steamaster tables on order from our local supply place.

Also, the 2 unit 3 BR rad air vents we turned upside down to stop them from heating per the tennant's request didn't work. The tennenat told us they heated up normally this past week instead of remaining off. Is our next option to use the smaller vents with the 1=no air released setting or those valves between the rad and air vent?

We had some frustrating results tonight, but seem to at least have tightened that one BR rad supply valve nut with our graphite packing rope.

MilanD

Maid o mist vents not closing means a bad vent, or could also be water logged vent, or crud in it. Tap on it and see if stops letting the steam out. Or take it off, shake it off and blow through it while rotating. It should close.

The water movement in the boiler sight glass makes no sense. Are you sure the valves on it are open all the way? Brown water color may indicate lot's of sludge and boiler needing cleaning. This may be one of your issues.

Water dropping so much in 10 sec is not normal. Is this when steam is making? Is it sucking water up, making wet steam? How's your near boiler piping? This may explain a lot of issues from low water, to vents not closing.

What did you say your op. pressure was set at?

Also, how's the water use been? Have you seen the decline?

I would also suggest flooding the boiler when you get a warmer spell. It is new boiler, but who knows if it was put together correctly. Sounds like chasing ghosts with all you've been doing, I'd try it too. I've found out today by flooding our 7 year old boiler, that it has a crack, possibly it rotted out, but could also be a section seal gasket. We'll know tomorrow. That's on about, I am now estimating after chasing my ghosts, 10 gallons a week of new water (3-4 on float blow down, plus op loss, long story there), and this is on the low estimate (I didn't have a water meter until 2 weeks ago). If you had 4 gals of new water per day for some time, anything is possible. Probably not in such a short time, but check it out to make sure. 1st year warranty is the best warranty.

MilanD

Upside down vents should not vent at all and rads should be cold. What vent is it? Some vents don't have a float, I just learned form one of the other posts.

Put an 1/8 nipple and a cap in the vent tapping and see if this makes it cold. You may have a rad that's not sealed, but this is not likely.

MilanD

Spud union can be tightened and those sometime do loosen up. Don't overdo it, I once broke a nut like that. Do it after you have the replacement valve in hand. Unless someone damaged the spud/union mating surface, tightening should stop any leaks.

MilanD

Sounds like a lot of little things adding up. What is your op. pressure? Did you get the low pressure gauge?

Wet steam, high pressure, dirty water (from wet steam dislodging pipe rust and crud), lot's of make-up....

After you are positive on all rads working, and no other leaks, see how's the water use. Them dial down pressure. Then, check piping is per wm install manual. Then, flood the boiler if you are stil still losing water.

Abracadabra

Were pics of near boiler piping ever provided? I don't remember seeing them and can't find them in the thread.

cubicacres

Here's some pics from the other post about water loss:




That's a Safguard and VXT-24 water feeder there, not a Cycleguard

cubicacres

The water moved down to empty on the sight glass, then up to half full when it starts making steam until it lowers and has LWC about 10-15 minutes later.

Pressure is at the lowest cut-in on the Honeywell pressuretrolls (.5 or 1psi, I think)? with a differential of 1 for a cut-out at 1.5 or 2 psi, I believe.

Warmer temps make the new water use slow down as it runs around 16 hours at 0 deg days, 8 at 20 deg days, and 5 at 40 deg days the past month. That 0 deg day had up to 4 gal per day used, 20s were 1 gal/day, and now at 40 we're about 1 gal/3-4 days. Our log book suggests a steady water use per hour of run time.

We used hoffman 1A vari-vents for all 21 rads execept a few maid-o-mist on the last few rads on the longest line.

Abracadabra

Take some water from the skim tap of the boiler, put it in a pot and boil it. Does it look like it boils like fresh water out of the faucet or is it different? Does it foam up?

cubicacres

Bonus Question: Does graphite "string" (maybe not teflon due to high steam temps?) vs. "twist stem" (we found twist at our local store) packing per the link below matter for packing those loose/leaky rad valves? Or the diameter of the packing since they come in various thicknesses?:

http://supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=graphite%20packing

MilanD

All that piping looks great. Water mvt described in the last post is also to be expected. Some water sits in wet return pipes and is pushed back when pressure rises, then most water is steam and condensate doesn't return in time for more demand. If the heat is sufficient, I'd not worry about it. In this case I would install a secondary lwc, for safety and make sure they are tested and inspected yearly. It's a safety device and boiler should not operate off it in my view. 2 would give u redundancy. If not this, add a condensate receiver for expanded liquid capacity and this would turn lwc into safety switch it's meant to be. Or, somehow increase wet return piping for capacity. Others can chime in on how that's done.

I'm still not getting 1 gal/day average without a weekly blowdown... But, with so many leaking rads and vents, it does seem plausable. Many little leaks can add up for sure. Monitor water use after all the repairs, and test water quality. TDS is the hardness, and the ph level. My 7 yo LGB sprung a leak this month on similar conditions you describe here.

Pressure is probably the best you can get with that trol. Next step would be installing a vaporstat and a low pressure gauge to dial in the lowest possible op pressure. Then, perhaps 2 stage gas valve for even greater efficiency, as described here:
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1461116#Comment_1461116

Hoffman 1A is great vent. At least in my experience. As is maid o mist.

Difference between 2 packing examples is that one is multi-strand so it can be taken apart for thinner need or used as a thicker strand. No other difference.

As a landlors myself, I completely understand wanting to minimize expenses.

Hope this is helpful.

Jamie Hall

A tip on the spud union -- it sometimes helps to rock the radiator a little when tightening it.

nicholas bonham-carter

There should be no surprise in the increase of fuel usage, with a change to Tekmar control, or similar, without making sure the system is perfectly balanced. It is normal for this type of control to use more fuel to compensate for any imbalance in the system.
I would revert to a thermostat such as a Honeywell VisionPro with remote sensor in the coldest area, until you get the system back to proper balance. You may find it does a better job once all is ok.-- NBC

cubicacres

We checked our tennant who wanted the BR & dining room rads off, and noticed the hoffman 1a upside down method on each worked only for the dining room-the bedroom was fully heating on that rad.

Any ideas why it seemed to work for one rad but not the other using the same vents on the larger 58 Sq ft EDR size column style rad in the dining room & the wall mounted (3 sections, total of 27 Sq ft EDR) rad in the BR? The BR vent did have water in it when we took it off and blew in it. The blow test seemed ok.

BobC

Try swapping the vents, if the problem moves with the vent you have a bad vent. If that doesn't work make sure you don't have any tiny leaks on the BR radiator.

Bob

MilanD

> @BobC said:
> Try swapping the vents, if the problem moves with the vent you have a bad vent. If that doesn't work make sure you don't have any tiny leaks on the BR radiator.
>
> Bob

Agreed.

cubicacres

We also ordered that brass shut-off 1/8 in valve for the tennant's BR. We'll try that tomorrow. We did do a skim last month and skimmed it until the tapping water boiled at the same temp as the city water-is another skim reccomended?

cubicacres

After waiting several weeks, we finally got the Steamaster tablets. We'll try one tomorrow & install the 1/8 inch brass ball valve for the radiator in the unit 3 BR to shut off the radiator at night and see how that works.

Have you done anything with the blow-down water after using Steamaster tablets (is it ok to drain, or should special care be taken with the purple water?). The instructions indicate it's not very friendly stuff, so we'll be careful and use gloves when we put a tablet in the blow-down port into the water.

MilanD

Safety data sheet says water can go to drain.

BobC

Any water drained from a boiler with steamaster is safe to handle but DON'T drink it and wash your hands if they get wet. be careful handling the dry "pills" handle them with gloves or a paper towel.

As @M@MilanD stated any water with steamaster in it can be safely put down a drain.

Bob

Fred

@BobC , I'm sure you meant "Don't drink it" Are you throwing extra beer bottles off the front porch today?

BobC

@Fred Yes I did, thanks for bringing my typo to my attention.

You would think this computer would display what I mean rather than what I type!

Bob

cubicacres

Thanks. We unscrewed the plug & opened the gate valve for the skim port & pushed one steamaster tablet in using gloves & a screwdriver. It turned the gauge glass light purple in a few minutes. There was a fair amount of brown crud in the skim port around the thread for the plug & gate valve further in. We used a rag to wipe it out for a better seal, but this may not have been enough, as it began leaking on startup.

I think I opened the gate valve too high, since it started leaking water out of the top of the stem above the packing nut just below the handwheel, and at the bottom of the plug when it started producing steam a few minutes later after turning the power back on. We tightened up the packing nut & it seemed to stop leaking there, but still several drops from the bottom side of the plug kept dripping during steam production. We suspect we should wait another day or two and raise the water level once the steamaster tablets have had a chance to bind to the boiler water & solids, then flush out the skim port (or just do it now with a few ounces of warm street water & a turkey baster to remove the crud in the threads & gate valve areas). We can blow down some of the water from the bottom to return the water level to the correct position in the gauge glass if this would be reccomended. Our skim port moves a little from the 12 o clock position with the handwheel if we just use one wrench to remove the plug on the end, so we use 2 wrenches & keep the skim pipe steady near the gate valve & level while loosening the plug on the end each time. Any thoughts on addressing the new skim port leaks?

cubicacres

We packed that leaking skim port gate valve nut with our graphite packing & wiped out the port after another quick skim to push out the dirt along the nipple, and it feels much tighter now. Hopefully not too tight, since it takes some effort to fully close it now. Teflon tape on the plug threads for extra sealant, and no more leaks yet.

We couldn't turn the unit 4 radiator spud side union supply valve that was dripping a little with our pipe wrench last week, so maybe we'll wait until off-season and replace the whole radiator supply valve with a new one.

With another steamaster tablet in the skim port, the gauge glass looks darker (now medium shade) pink & seems to have less brown crud floating in it.

Does the steamaster grab the crud in the boiler water & gauge glass since connected, and bind with it to sink it to the bottom where we ocassionally blow it out?

If we keep adding a new tablet every so often (every 5-10 new gallons or something?), is this a good way to blow the crud out of the system chemically by skimming more frequently & blowing-down more often without harm due to the steamaster tablets addressing any harm the new water would be doing?

Ideally, we'll fix all the leaks to let the boiler run long enough to operate efficiently, but maybe wet steam from the crud was another reason our boiler was using more water or shutting off a little too soon?

With the warm weather, we're down to about a gallon a week or less of new water.