New vs. Old Boiler Energy Use Differences Suprising to Us

Fred

Let's hope you find something in one of the two remaining apartments.
@cubicacres said: "A little steam when on our hand-mirror when they were filling with steam, then none after the boiler stopped, so we thought that was ok. "
There won't be any leaking when the boiler isn't running. There is no steam or pressure to push steam out of a leaking fitting.
Using an IR camera along the mains would be helpful along with Visual inspection of the mains. Bubble checking the fittings is a good approach too. If you find a wet section of insulation, focus on that area of the piping.
Checking the risers will be a bit more challenging. That may be where an IR camera will be of most value.
Let's hope you find something in those last two apartments.
You are 100% sure there are no hidden pipes/returns under the floor or risers that go up into an attic space that might have a bad vent on it, right?

BobC

When trying to get shims under a radiator try using a 3 or 4 ft 2X4 and a fulcrum to lever it up. Thos allows a lot of control and reduces the chance of doing anything you can't easily recover from.

Bob

MilanD

> @BobC said:
> When trying to get shims under a radiator try using a 3 or 4 ft 2X4 and a fulcrum to lever it up. Thos allows a lot of control and reduces the chance of doing anything you can't easily recover from.
>
> Bob

I was going to comment this too. Just did this very thing today. Rads don't stand a chance against a lever! Give me a fulcrum, and I shall move the earth!

Koan

@MilanD
Archimedes lives!

ΕΛΕΓΕ ΔΕ ΚΑΙ ΔΩΡΙΣΤΙ ΦΩΝΗ ΣΥΡΑΚΟΥΣΙΑ, “ΠΑ ΒΩ ΚΑΙ ΧΑΡΙΣΤΙΩΝΙ ΤΑΝ ΓΑΝ ΚΙΝΗΣΩ ΠΑΣΑΝ.”

MilanD

@Koan

It's all Greek to me...

cubicacres

Thanks for the lever advice

We have a few abandoned runs (a removed rad above the boiler room), but didn't notice any leaking from their caps (but we may have missed observing them during the steaming time).

Visited unit 4 today, unit 3 (the last one) is tomorrow. We tightened a few rad supply valve nuts 1-3 turns (using our hand crescent adjustable wrench). Saw some signs of floor rot around one rad from old air vent leaks & stains on the inside of the bottom of the rad cover near the vent area, but those valve nuts were already too tight to move with our crescent wrench.

The historically noisy BR one didn't turn, similar to several others in the other units that seemed tight. Tennants complained about noise in that BR rad vent again, so we waited and ran into the room and noticed this leak (see pic). The noise came from the supply valve side, not the suspected maid-o-mist vent we just replaced due to noise complaints of the hoffman vari-vent. The maid-o-mist did sound like it was giving birth & puffing in a la mas class, then whistled before going silent (no steam on our mirror)

It wasn't leaking a few minutes ago when we tried to tighten it & checked the mirror the first time, so we might need to be there at the right time when it's being filled with steam? That only gives us about 10 minutes of time for that long loop before we shut off on low water. We tightened it about 3/4 of a turn with a pipe wrench, and told the tennants to tell us if they see it leaking again.


If it keeps leaking, would you reccomend re-packing the nut or replacing the entire valve? Here's a pic of the front of the valve-has an A on one side, a 1 with a small 5 at the bottom of this pic side. Suspect it's a 1 inch angle American radiator company supply valve?

New England SteamWorks

Valves and their tailpieces are mates. I.e. a matching pair. You will need to replace.

BobC

Because replacing the valve and tail piece is not easy I would try repacking that stem first.

Bob

New England SteamWorks

I assume it's leaking at the union of the tail piece and the valve...

MilanD

Pic shows leak at valve stem. Repack first and see if that helps (it should). Heat needs to be off for this. Just be exta extra cateful not to crack that nut. Old calcified brass will split right down the side when overpacked and tightened. I've done it a time or two. Don't overpack. Start with 2 or 3 turns of the packing and see if that makes the stem firm.

Have a replacement valve ready just in case too, a spud wrench to back out the old spud in the rad, a good helper, some Cranoil or PB Blaster and a large pipe wrench 24" at least with a longish breaker bar to add another 2-3 ft on the handle. Be patient for the penetrant to work and use 2 wrenches on everything. Old pipes can be turned oval in no time and old valves may not want to move off. Sometimes give it a gentle tightening yank and then start backing. Gingerly and no violent jerking movements on the wrench. Some pulsing is ok, but nothing too strong to twist out of shape pipes and crack cast iron fittings.

Key is having all suppliea and taking time not to break anything and make more work for yourself. Always think ahead if you break anything how would you fix it. Source a place you can get any extra piping, fittings and unions if needs be.

MilanD

Btw, you will only see leaks under steam pressure, or some puddling under fittings if a leak is large. Otherwise they might dry out if on the pipe, from the heat.

cubicacres

Since we don't know of any Milwaukee area HVAC shops willing to sell to us non-contractors (we asked around), is this our best source?

supplyhouse.com/Matco-Norca-BARVY-1000-1-FIP-x-Male-Union-Steam-Angle-Radiator-Valve-4648000-p

Is there a reccomended type of packing material we can try before replacing the entire valve (silicon & graphite were mentioned)? Would we buy this online as well since we're surprised how so many HVAC shops don't want to sell us parts & equipment as owners of the building & boiler? Is this a contractor supply chain issue we're not aware of in the industry? You'd think we could just go to the local hardware store and buy whatever we need

cubicacres

By the way, once the packing job works, is replacing the whole valve just getting you a new handle, or is there some value in replacing it for a new gate or other components in the rad supply valve?

And for later, here's 1 of just 2 0-3 psi gauges we found online:

https://amazon.com/Kodiak-Controls-KC25-3-Pressure-Gauge/dp/B00H9ZWLZG/ref=pd_sbs_328_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=4N6XER341RAWDKCXGCAG

Is this the type of gauge we can install to monitor our pressure and eventually control it with a vaporstat controller (only see honeywell brand online so far)?

MilanD

Yes, I installed several of those valves. They are fine. Ditto for the gauge from amazon and the Honeywell vaporstat from the same online store as rad valve.

I am surprised even Ferguson won't sell you pipes and valves. I can see not wanting to sell you boilers and such, but fittings? Tell them what you need.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ferguson+milwaukee

Without contractor account the markup is ghastly, but I walked into our branch here in Cincinnati for a few fittings, no problem. As a property "manager" you can ask to set up an account with them, they'll give you application and a nice lady from the office does the rest. Same for any pipe supply place. Google "Milwaukee pipe supply". Having all these lined up may give you better choices to source parts. Plumbing and pipe supply places, not hvac places.

You can also ask your plumber, if you have a regular go to person (you should), to use his account and just pay cash when picking stuff up. As an RE owner, you are for all practical purposes a property manager and not merely a joe public.

Graphite or teflon packing you can pick up at any "Ace" hardware, independently operated hardware or I've sometimes seen it at the big box place too. Ferguson will def cary it. Ask for valve packing. It's the same stuff for reparing old water shut off valves and old hose bib faucets. I used both kinds, really doesn't matter other than price.

As to old valve handle vs new valve: new valve will close off the rad in an emergency vs old valve that may or may not. If packing it stops the leak, leave it be and I'd also leave the rad without a handle. Less for uninformed tenants to mess with and trying to turn things down and not understand that on 1 pipe steam it's all on or all off. Then, have a replacement valve for each pipe size you need on hand in case you need to replace it later. Cheap insurance policy in my opinion. Or at least a few pipe caps of various sizes for the same reason.

Did you see a lot of water leaks on all those valves you tightened? How's the water make-up volume now after 3 apts have been serviced?

Fred

@cubicacres , while you are trying to fix system leaks, check one more item. That being the Auto water feeder. Those feeders are based on time rather than water flow and it may well be that, if your water pressure, in the building is low, or the flow through that feeder is restricted that the feeder meter is registering more gallons fed that what is actually happening. If you have a convenient place to disconnect the water line into the boiler, after the feeder and dump a gallon of water into a container, using the water feeder, see how much water the meter registers. Also, I believe if the meter is integrated into the water feeder, it will register water usage on the meter with every call for water, even if the water feeder is valved off, unless you disconnect the wiring.

cubicacres

Thanks Fred-seeing if the meter is calibrated correctly was one of our things on our list to check. Our installers doubted the accuracy of the meter due to higher city water psi vs meter measurements at lower psi-however the manual states it should be accurate to with +/- a few percent, if I remember reading it correctly.

We went to the last apt #3 and saw a few radiators were level, but no leaks evident. All heated all the way across with no steaming vents after they closed using our mirror check. It was plenty warm up there (to hot for my comfort). One or two supply nuts were akwardly located in the corner, so we could only fit our small hand crescent adjustable wrench on them and they were tight with that amount of force. Although the other unit leaked after we couldn't tighten it with the small wrench any more until we used the pipe wrench, so that doesn't give us high certainty we stopped everything. Ideally we'd need to run the boiler using test/run at 100% continuously mode on the tekmar and run around and look at all the supply valves & vents as they fill with steam and build pressure to be sure we found all possible rad area leaks before the low water shuts it off?

After tightining that apt #3 yesterday, this is what our tennant told us:

It seems like the radiator in my bedroom and dining room are now unable to be turned off. Did you adjust something in there that can be reversed? I would really appreciate it if you could come back and adjust back to the state they were in prior to your visit today. I need to have control over those two radiators, here's why:

The bedroom: I can't have the heat on in my bedroom when I am sleeping, because the room is so small -- it's unhealthy to sleep so close to a heat source.

The dining room: That location is directly next to my two computers, and I have all my external hard drives located there. I need to turn off that radiator periodically to modulate the temperature so my electronics are not overheated.

It's our understanding the rad supply valves should be left completely open and regulated with smaller (or adjustable or TRV) rad vents to keep things cooler. Is throttling the supply valve or closing it entirely ever reccomended to regulate rad heat output in each room? We suspect our tightining of the nuts made it hard to close them for her.

Any thoughts on how to satisfy the tennant and minimize potential leaks/pressure/operating problems in that unit? (or all the others for that matter) We have vari-vents on all rads except the last few on the long line are larger maid-o-mist or gortons C/D size(?)

BobC

If the radiators have air vents on them you can replace them with Ventrite #1's, that adjustable vent can be turned off by setting it to zero. The alternative is to put a valve between the radiator and the vent, something like this should work.

http://www.plumbingsuppliesoutlet.com/inventory/2139169/

Bob

MilanD

> @BobC said:
> If the radiators have air vents on them you can replace them with Ventrite #1's, that adjustable vent can be turned off by setting it to zero. The alternative is to put a valve between the radiator and the vent, something like this should work.
>
> http://www.plumbingsuppliesoutlet.com/inventory/2139169/
>
> Bob

Bob, you are a genius! I am dead serious. This didn't even cross my mind!! No need to rotate vents and worry about breaking them or enlarging the 1/8 tapings!

MilanD

@cubicacres

Keep in mind 2 things. Well, 3:

1. If all tenants have option to adjust individual rads, it will throw offf balance of the system as a whole. You may have to run at higher pressures to compensate.

2. As the system cycles, rad that's turned off might not get hot as quickly the next time tenant turns it back on and they need to be explained this.

3. If you turn the pressure up, your fuel bill will go up with it.

Ps. If the rad is too hot, slow the venting to it. If still too hot, throw a blanket on it, or get an enclosure.

Fred

The Vent-rite, set to "1" will shut the radiator off except possibly for maybe 1 or 2 sections. The radiator valve must be either all the way open and probably should not be closed as they tend to still leak steam into the radiator(especially old valves) and the condensate cannot flow out of the radiator. When you are running the boiler during a normal cycle or for any testing, run it at the normal pressure settings. If the pressure is cranked up, it will likely cause steam to leak from places it normally wouldn't if the pressure were lower.
To your point about the water meter and your local water pressure. If local water pressures are higher than typical, and the pressure in your building is higher than typical, that could suggest you are using more water than the meter suggests. Lower local or building water pressures would mean the meter is likely over estimating water usage. While the water pressure to the building may be high, that doesn't mean the flow through older building plumbing is equal to that. Is the building water plumbing copper, PVC or the old galvanized pipe?

cubicacres

The building water supply lines are mostly copper. Waste/returns are mostly older galvanized.

Our tennant wants to try shutting off the rads in her bedroom & living room at the supply shut-off valve for 2 weeks to see if she's comfortable without them since we don't have any vent-rite vents on hand or the valve BobC mentioned. She might be happy with them off the rest of the season, using only 4 of 6 rads in her 2BR apt. Is this a problem? If this works without causing other problems, would it just decrease our EDR and divert the steam to other rad in the building? The vent-rite or shut-off valve sounds easier, but if we add those between tennants, that could also work.

We did see the water meter used another gallon last night & ran for 8 hours per the tekmar. This is about 1 gallon per 3 days running around 8hrs/days. This is about the same as the last few weeks, which indicates out leak is still out there.

Fred

It's not a problem if the valves actually close 100%, which they won't. They will let steam in but the condensate can't return to the boiler. Just turn the vent upside down. That will prevent air from getting out of the rads and keep them from heating. If any steam gets into the rad, the condensate will flow out of the open valve.
It does suggest the leak is still out there somewhere or the meter isn't working properly. Test the water meter by dumping a gallon of water as I suggested, above, and see what the meter registers.

MilanD

If you've put your hand on every rad, saw every vent and valve, while system was on and pressurised and nothing obvious stood out, there is only walled in pipes left to check. I'm not sure if others would agree, I'd first perform the test on the feeder. Even turn off the water to the boiler overnight (of course make sure lwc is working), and revisit the next day... If the water is that low the next day, you will know there is still a massive loss somewhere. If not, feeder is faulty and registers fills when there are none.

Question for the rest: if he uses steamaster tablets and turns water purplish, will new water dilute back to clear if it indeed there is such a massive turnover in water? If so, that may be another way to see if this is in fact all just a fault of the feeder meter. Water will keep the purplish color.

BobC

if condensate is leaking out it will take a very long time for the water to change color. If it's leaking out of the boiler itself it will change a lot faster in my opinion.

Bob

MilanD

> @BobC said:
> if condensate is leaking out it will take a very long time for the water to change color. If it's leaking out of the boiler itself it will change a lot faster in my opinion.
>
> Bob

If he's losing 4 gal a day, the entire water capacity of the boiler will turn over in a week, regardless if it's vents or pipes leaking, no? I think the boiler is something like 28 gal capacity. Won't this delute it back to clear?

Fred

At this point he seems to only be losing a gallon a day with about 8 hours of actual heat time in that 24 hour period. I would agree with you @MilanD that the color change could be a way to check dilution but at 1 gallon a day, it probably won't be that noticeable to the naked eye. Coupled with that the color of the water changes based on the exhaustion of the steamaster chemicals. I think if he can do the meter test and if the meter is proven to be reasonably accurate the leak has to hidden in a wall or ceiling. He never did say if there is an attic in that building that may have a riser vent or any other steam piping.

I don't know what other facilities are in that basement or if some tenant might be drawing off a gallon of water hot water from the boiler drain for some reason while/if they have access to the basement. I thought it strange that he had one day with 4 gallons of water usage. All the other days seem to be around 1 gallon.

BobC

I think it depends on how much of the water treatment goes into the steam, most don't make the transition but I could be wrong.

Bob

MilanD

@Fred @cubicacres

Given the erradic nature of the suspected water loss, I'm hopping it's the feeder meter issue.

As to steamaster, I'm thinking put 2 tablets in and look at it again when the meter says 28 gals have been filled (or whatever the boiler capacity is). If the water is still purplish, it's the meter.

@cubicacres I installed this on our water line to the boiler

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CZEMMBI/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_BldFybT2BK357

For our 40.3 gal boiler, it took in exactly 0.003 m3, or a tad under 0.8 gals over the 2 days last week. I skipped the regualr blowdown to measure water use without it after installing the meter. It is a 2,000 EDR rating on the boiler, although one zone was off and I do have a 50 gal condensate tank that was 2/3 full. Since that .8 gals was taken in, no more water was taken in all week.

cubicacres

So far we haven't seen any attic risers-just the 2 floors of apartments with a few feet of clearance in the attic hatch due to the flat roof. One capped run-out on the side of one of the mains in the basement as if a radiator were attatched to the basement ceiling in the past, and the one removed rad above the boiler room with a cap.

Our water loss the last month was about 1gal/day which alerted us. One day last week it was 4 gal/day, now about 1 gal/ every 3 days with 8hrs run time or less per day. Colder weather seems to run longer & leak more.

Since we're heating the building ok and sometimes shutting off prematurley due to low water, does this suggest we should decrease the boiler % on the tekmar down from 100% (especially if one tennant doesn't want heat in 2 rads on the 2nd floor this season)? After we fix the leak, we can make these adjustments if reccomended (don't want to adjust too many variables at once, right?).

With some steam getting past the closed rad valves in apt 3 per tennant's request, will the condensate keep getting trapped in the rad and still register some water loss for us? Or will it flow out of the rad around the closed valve as water, or upside-down hoffman vari-vent once we turn it upside-down?

Checking the water meter seems like our next step as mentioned above. Then we either re-visit all the rad vents & valves while producing steam (we didn't time all the other ones in the building to view them as steam filled the rads or the boiler was on last week), or cut off the main insulation and look around the basement mains for leaks?

Fred

With the radiator vent turned upside down, and the valve open, the condensate will drain back to the boiler. With the valve closed, the condensate may not. I wouldn't cut the insulation off of the mains. With the amount of water you appear to be losing, I would feel the insulation for wet areas or for wet spots on the floor under the mains. Run your hand along the insulation the full length of each main to feel for any indication of dampness.

cubicacres

ok, so far we see some old water stains on the bottom of a few main areas, but no damp to the touch areas. Since 2 unions (1 at a drop-header & 1 at the main rise) at the near-boiler piping leaked last year, I'm tempted to remove the 2nd drop header union insulation to see if it's doing the same.

Is another option to re-pack all 21 rad valves to be thorough, since we don't know which ones are leaking and many are very old? We should probably still watch them as the steam is produced to be sure even after re-packing. Is the graphite or teflon valve packing recomended in a certain size, or just buy a few feet of it?

Sailah

I repacked all our Jenkins steam valves on our test rack which get a TON of usage back in November.

I bought 2 sizes because I wasn't sure which would work better. Worked perfectly. Sometimes McMaster links don't work so here's the part numbers I bought:

97675K5
97675K4

http://www.mcmaster.com/#97675k5/=15xux2z

Fred

Check here: http://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=graphite packing
I would take the insulation off of one of those stained areas and see what might be going on. It's possible that a leak could dry out from the heat of the pipe. Watch that area when the boiler is running. It wouldn't hurt to repack all the valves but I don't think it is necessary. Ask the tenants to watch the valves occasionally and let you know if they see any steam coming from the valve or vent. Maybe make it a habit to go into each unit a couple times over the next month, while the boiler is running and check things out.

cubicacres

Thanks-just saw the mcmaster description about cutting it to size. Since this would be our first time re-packing valves, are we removing anything in it first like replacing a washer, or just filling up the space around it to give it a better/tighter seal?

Fred

I think the ones from Supplyhouse are 21" long. Take the old packing out of the valve and wrap two to three wraps around the stem and tighten the packing not down. You may have to play around with it. You want enough packing around the stem that the packing nut compresses it a bit but not so much that you crack the nut.

cubicacres

ok, sounds like a tight seal when the nut is tight is the goal (without over-tightining). Does it matter if the valve is open, partially open, or closed when doing this after shutting down the boiler? Coming in from the top by removing the screw where the handle used to be? (or still is for a few of our newer valves)

Sailah

Yes you just cut to fit and pack it in there. I forgot the exact sequence of events but I think I picked some old cruddy packing out with a dental pick and then laid in the new stuff. It didn't take much, then tightened down the packing nut until I had a good action on the valve handle.

I don't know if that's the official way to do it but that's what I did.

Our valves get used a ton. Sometimes 100's times a day. I did have to tweak the packing nut once after everything had a chance to marry.

I see supplyhouse is out. Their pricing is certainly better. I will say this about McMaster Carr. They have EVERYTHING. I have never not received an order from them the next day going UPS ground. With the amount of varied things I may have on an order like O rings, RTV sealant, bolts, Loctite etc it's nice to just have one order. And their website is just the absolute best.

I have been very pleased with Supplyhouse as well. I have ordered both for work and personal from them and their communications were great too. Plus they are one of our vendors.

Fred

It really shouldn't matter if the valve is open or closed to pack it. Yes come in from the top after taking the packing nut off and DO MAKE SURE THE BOILER IS POWERED OFF.

cubicacres

About 15 or so of our 21 rads don't have valve handles anymore since the wood ones broke off years ago We could pick up a few extra handles using the different size square shafts they fit on (and figure out what that screw is doing replacing the shaft on a few), or just tighten the square shaft with a small wrench to work in the new packing without new handles if new handles don't fit on the broken shafts easily without further replacement parts?

Fred

A screw replacing a shaft? A picture would help me understand that. There is a screw in the center of the top of the valve stem to hold the handle on. Other than that, I can't think of any other screw on the valve.