Oops

AirborneTrav

So I was doing an annual maintenance today on a peerless, and realized the pressure was at about 40 pounds. I assumed that the tridicator was bad because the relief valve wasn't discharging. When I went to check out the relief valve, I found that someone had decided that it could be used as a male or a female fitting. Kind of scary.

Mark Eatherton

Thank goodness for Lowes and Home Depot...

ME

Steamhead

Scary and stupid..... and you can't fix stupid.......

rick in Alaska

Haven't seen that one done. Wow!
Rick

ChrisJ

Mark Eatherton said:

Thank goodness for Lowes and Home Depot...

ME

Blaming Lowes and Home Depot for stupid people is wrong and inaccurate.

Don't assume a homeowner did this either, that's not fair.

There are plenty of pictures floating around online of professionally installed atmospheric water heaters with botched venting waiting to kill someone.

Good DIYers don't like being grouped in with bad ones anymore than professionals do. Please be nice.

billtwocase

That is scary, and in part Mark isn't too far off. There are some knowledgeable DYIers, but there are some things out there being made available to people that would be best not to be. This is why we are licensed and insured. This is purely profit driven for these home centers. Anyone read the tag attached to relief valves?

MilanD

Oh, wow...

On a lighter side, I bet this one never drips...

But, wow...

ChrisJ

billtwocase said:

That is scary, and in part Mark isn't too far off. There are some knowledgeable DYIers, but there are some things out there being made available to people that would be best not to be. This is why we are licensed and insured. This is purely profit driven for these home centers. Anyone read the tag attached to relief valves?

Mom and pop hardware stores carried pressure relief valves long before Home Depot and Lowes were even thought of. There was one down the road from where I grew up that had all of that stuff and sold to the general public.

Someone that was licensed and insured almost killed my family after assuring me my draft was good. I expressed concern about it and they didn't even pull the smoke pipe, the chimney was almost totally clogged. This is why I started doing all of my own work. I ensure what I am doing is correct and in the end I know it's done right and in a safe manner.



This in absolutely no way means any disrespect to competent professionals There are many good guys out there. There are guys on this forum who do absolutely amazing work, truly way beyond what's necessary. They work in pipe the way other artists work with paint or clay.

Someone is not good just because they are licensed and insured. Home Depot has contractors that install HVAC systems. Would you blindly trust them in your home?


Sorry for the rant....

Happy Friday guys!

Gsmith

When my gas fired steam boiler was installed about 25 years ago, by a professional, after getting a town permit and inspected by the town mechanical inspector, my wife complained bitterly for a week or so of getting headaches during the day. When I finally took time to check on it I found the union on the gas line feeding the new boiler was loose (finger loose) and gas was causing the headaches. About 2 inches below this loose union was the town inspection sticker (passed). Lucky I guess we just got headaches and not blown up. So a professionally installed, permitted and town inspected installation was no guarantee.

Now I admit my case was an oversight or mistake which anyone can make, and not a completely stupid misuse of a component like shown in the picture.

ChrisJ

Gary Smith said:

When my gas fired steam boiler was installed about 25 years ago, by a professional, after getting a town permit and inspected by the town mechanical inspector, my wife complained bitterly for a week or so of getting headaches during the day. When I finally took time to check on it I found the union on the gas line feeding the new boiler was loose (finger loose) and gas was causing the headaches. About 2 inches below this loose union was the town inspection sticker (passed). Lucky I guess we just got headaches and not blown up. So a professionally installed, permitted and town inspected installation was no guarantee.

Now I admit my case was an oversight or mistake which anyone can make, and not a completely stupid misuse of a component like shown in the picture.

True,
But the mistake you found even though it was an oversight etc actually had a far greater chance of killing people.

I'm glad it all turned out the way it did.

BrianT1077

@Gary Smith, some town inspectors really don't mean much. I asked my inspector who claimed he had 30 years experience in the heating industry about the concern of copper risers I have from my header into my 2 mains, and he said that you can pipe the entire steam boiler in copper and it will be fine. Well obviously he has never researched how a steam boiler is properly piped in.

JUGHNE

If I put a wrench on gas piping at all it will get the bubbles applied. Even changing a T-couple on a standing pilot. That spray bottle is often the last thing removed from the job site. Most of the leaks if any, are unions.

STEVEusaPA

I saw one like that on an annual service. The boiler was dripping, the h/o didn't want to call me or a plumber ("too expensive") so she called her friend who was 'pretty handy'.
If only they put arrows on that valve...(lol I see them)

Solid_Fuel_Man

A decade ago when I was just an electrician I wanted to buy a submersible well pump. The local wholesalers practically turned their backs on me. It was very frusterated to say the least. I didn't want the China-made pumps I could get at big-box at the time. Ended up getting a Goulds on ebay, but took a couple of weeks.

Fast forward to now, I have several professional licenses and those same counter guys are friendly and chatty. There was a time when I was just a homeowner with a will to do things right.

I think we had a thread about this awhile back. Selling to the general public is a double-edge sorwd. And in my working life I have seen many many things done by both pros and shade trees that should have blown up, killed someone, or just plain not worked.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Working for a long time and we'll known guy who started his own company. The only time I've had to show any of my licenses to anyone was buying refrigerant or state inspector.

j a_2

Here in Massachusetts it is against the law for an unlicensed individual to install any gas appliance....And you must be insured.....and you must file a permit...We follow NFPA 54 with a supliment.....Seen so many botched installs, by plumbers,gasfitters and homeowners.....It's the legality thing that will get you every time....Just the facts

ChrisJ

j a said:

Here in Massachusetts it is against the law for an unlicensed individual to install any gas appliance....And you must be insured.....and you must file a permit...We follow NFPA 54 with a supliment.....Seen so many botched installs, by plumbers,gasfitters and homeowners.....It's the legality thing that will get you every time....Just the facts

So what you're saying is Massachusetts forcing homeowners to use licensed and insured contractors is pointless because you've seen them do "so many botched installs" as well.

Got it.

billtwocase

ChrisJ. It's like any crime, if no one knows or sees it happening, is it still illegal? I live and practice in Mass. Yes, being licensed doesn't guaranty anything, but insurance will make up for a loss. Being a homeowner, or a "friend" doing plumbing, electrical, gas piping, or whatever, you are self insured. Don't be fooled by the insurance company will arrive with a blank check. They have been clamping down for years. I would have to look next time I am in a Home Depot here in Mass to see if they sell relief valves. They are not my supplier, so can't confirm

j a_2

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

Here in Massachusetts it is against the law for an unlicensed individual to install any gas appliance....And you must be insured.....and you must file a permit...We follow NFPA 54 with a supliment.....Seen so many botched installs, by plumbers,gasfitters and homeowners.....It's the legality thing that will get you every time....Just the facts

So what you're saying is Massachusetts forcing homeowners to use licensed and insured contractors is pointless because you've seen them do "so many botched installs" as well.

Got it.

Well Mr. Chris it's not quite that simple of an answer...I didn't make the law I just followed it,,,Anyone can actually install it to the heating system, but it takes a license to gas it,vent it,and attach the domestic water to it...It's in the installation manual that state that as well.....There are more and more towns requiring mechanical permits....for heat loss and such....

Got it

Jamie Hall

I think tht @ChrisJ has a very valid point. To put it more briefly, possession of a license and a permit does not mean that the individual will necessarily know what he or she is doing in any given situation. Are the odds better that for that person than for the average DIY type? Surely. No argument. But it is no guarantee -- as we see, more or less regularly, here on the Wall.

Do I have a solution for the problem? No. Sorry...

billtwocase

I agree Jamie. There are only 2 guaranties in life, but I cringe when knowing that slumlords can go to a box store, buy a gas furnace, slap it in, and potentially kill the tenants just because it was made available. There is too much big brother in life now, but in some cases, it can be a good thing if it will save a life. Inspections, and hopefully competent inspectors are key

Fred

@billtwocase , In the scenario you describe above, I think a tenant also needs to take some ownership for their safety to. In our state, and I suspect, most states, a HO is allowed to install these appliances in their own homes but not in properties where they do not occupy/rentals. Of course, you are still suppose to acquire the permits and have the inspections but you don't need a license, if you are doing the work for yourself, in your own home and willing to take the risk (which is suppose to be minimal if the inspections/inspectors are knowledgeable).
In the case of this thread, as Steamhead often says, "You Can't fix stupid" . No getting around that. Any idiot, Pro, HO, DIY'er whoever who can't replace a PRV based on the way the old one came off is beyond help. JMHO

j a_2

What will the insurance company say when disaster strikes....They will ask who installed it and that individual will be called on to the carpet..Homeownr, contractor or whoever....Homeownes must realize just by selling there house they will be pretty much held liable for the work accomplished that caused damage or God forbid death...Even thou they don't live there anymore....All a tennent needs is the slightest excuse to get back at landlord...my experience in this stuff comes from years and years of being in business....Hands on....Pretty simple,follow your local laws....

billtwocase

I agree Fred. What if a tenant has no clue? Done while at work, or away? Definitely as Frank said, can't fix stupid

Koan

If you are a, DIYer like me, I think it is more important that you take your time, learn, ask questions, and become somewhat educated. It is also important to know when a pro is not an option. I think that responsibility is on the DIYer's shoulders, just like responsibility for a licensed contractor to do the work is on that person's shoulders. Either way the work should be done right. Even a DIYer can research and look up codes, and should do that background work. If you are not prepared to do all this, you should not be doing the work.

if you have no clue, learn or find someone who does.

ChrisJ

Koan said:

If you are a, DIYer like me, I think it is more important that you take your time, learn, ask questions, and become somewhat educated. It is also important to know when a pro is not an option. I think that responsibility is on the DIYer's shoulders, just like responsibility for a licensed contractor to do the work is on that person's shoulders. Either way the work should be done right. Even a DIYer can research and look up codes, and should do that background work. If you are not prepared to do all this, you should not be doing the work.

if you have no clue, learn or find someone who does.

A DIYer can also call the inspectors and talk to them if they have any questions. I wouldn't ask stupid questions, but anything reasonable is fine. In my case, I had talked to the plumbing inspector regarding king valves on the steam mains and a few other things. I also asked the electrical inspector about neutrals being doubled up per screw in the electrical panel so I could fix anything before they came out.

It makes their life and your life easier.

EBEBRATT-Ed

MA. does not require insurance if the homeowner signs the affidavit knowing that the licensed installer doesn't have insurance.

There's knuckleheads with licenses no doubt and plenty of knucklehead homeowners, and plenty with licenses that shouldn't have licenses.

and plenty of qualified homeowners that are not licensed that I would trust to do most any job.

You would think all licensed people would be competent, unfortunately this isn't true.

That being said,

Code up date classes in many states (I know MA. & CT do)

require licensed people to attend to keep there license. We hope they absorb the information that is taught even if we sometimes think attending is a PITA

Most Homeowners unfortunately are not exposed to the knowledge and code requirements that the professionals are

Dosent mean that all homeowners are knuckleheads, many are excellent mechanics and know enough to stay out of trouble and I am not against homeowners who know what they are doing

Jackmartin

That is very nasty to say the least. However I have run across two commercial jobs that are inexcusable because they were done by supposed experts. The pressure relief valves were piped in two inch and they thought the piping would hold the discharge end of the pipe off the floor. Wrong the pipe had sagged down and was effectively being sealed at the floor. I had to get two riser clamps and some angle weld the riser clamps to the angle bolt it to the two inch and lift the relief pipe up into the correct postion. This was done by a journeyman that is my biggist complaint there does not seem to be any time to teach apprentices the correct eay to do things anymore our trade and indeed our very reputations are being dragged through the mud because no one is teaching the youngsters it is beyond sad.

PM Home and Cabin Services

Thought I would chime in with a recent service call.
Cabin in northern Wisconsin, with a gas boiler and baseboard, the owner noticed the relief valve was discharging. Not knowing how or why this was happening (failed diaphragm tank) he attempted many different things to fix the problem over two days without heat and multiple 2 hr drives to manards. He finally decided to call for service when the pressure went above 100# and the new relief valve he picked up popped (and scared the s#!! out of him). The relief valve he bought and installed was a T/P 150# for water heater because "that's all manards had". He admitted he was going to plug it, but was too scared of the boiler to go back in basement at that point and decided to make the service call.

BobC

Fear can be a good thing.

Bob

Koan

so can common sense

delta T

Well, the tag said install vertically right? Maybe they were just following instructions......