New heating zone with runtal radiators
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Yes.0
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What about fittings with PAP? From what I read, it uses different connections. I had planned to use crimps, since the tools are affordable. I'm a DIYer, so I can't spend a ton of money in tools.0
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You need special tools to join the PAP fittings.0
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That may make it a bit prohibitive for me.0
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If you go with Fostapex I'll lend you my prep tool and manual press tool. I need them over the next two weeks but after that you can take your time with them.DIY'er ... ripped out a perfectly good forced-air furnace and replaced it with hot water & radiators.
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That is extremely generous, thank you! I'm obviously still in planning stages, so two weeks is no problem.Boon said:If you go with Fostapex I'll lend you my prep tool and manual press tool. I need them over the next two weeks but after that you can take your time with them.
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Regarding pipe and manifold sizing, how is it calculated? I'm just curious how many btus my proposed setup can actually handle. 3/4 feed into a 1" manifold with 1/2" inlets and outlets.0
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No problem reducing to 3/4" just get the appropriate fitting for your application.apg12 said:Supplyhouse.com has several options for a manufactured manifold system, I just wasn't seeing anything with a 3/4 feed. What would be the appropriate fitting to go from 3/4 pex to 1" manifold?
Also, what is the benefit of using pex-al-pex? There seems to be a pretty big price difference between that and the oxygen barrier pex-a I had planned on using.
A good point about the pex/al and movement. Either will work for your application. Pex-a is good stuff"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
on another note..I dont believe the indirect needs the pump on high speed. Id check the install manual with it to see just in case..0
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It all comes down to your pipe runs, pump size, design delta t, ect.apg12 said:Regarding pipe and manifold sizing, how is it calculated? I'm just curious how many btus my proposed setup can actually handle. 3/4 feed into a 1" manifold with 1/2" inlets and outlets.
Alan's ballpark of 40,000 earlier seems like a reasonable guess."If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
Ok, so if I were to use a 5 loop manifold and an extra ~5k btu radiator I should still be ok then. I'm only at about 16k with the current plan.Zman said:
It all comes down to your pipe runs, pump size, design delta t, ect.apg12 said:Regarding pipe and manifold sizing, how is it calculated? I'm just curious how many btus my proposed setup can actually handle. 3/4 feed into a 1" manifold with 1/2" inlets and outlets.
Alan's ballpark of 40,000 earlier seems like a reasonable guess.0 -
16k load with 3/4 is no problem. Not even near max capacity.0
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Does it matter where the manifold is in relation to the circulator or boiler? My ideal setup would be to run 3/4 pex to the crawl space under the stairs and mount the manifold there. That would be about a 25' run. I can mount it in the boiler room, its just a little tight and more 1/2" runs from there to the radiators.0
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What you are suggesting should work just fine. If you want to be 100% sure, post a drawing with the pipe lengths and specs on the rads and pump and someone here would surely be kind enough to run the numbers for you.apg12 said:Does it matter where the manifold is in relation to the circulator or boiler? My ideal setup would be to run 3/4 pex to the crawl space under the stairs and mount the manifold there. That would be about a 25' run. I can mount it in the boiler room, its just a little tight and more 1/2" runs from there to the radiators.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
Ok, thanks. I'll try to get that posted up tomorrow morning.Zman said:
What you are suggesting should work just fine. If you want to be 100% sure, post a drawing with the pipe lengths and specs on the rads and pump and someone here would surely be kind enough to run the numbers for you.apg12 said:Does it matter where the manifold is in relation to the circulator or boiler? My ideal setup would be to run 3/4 pex to the crawl space under the stairs and mount the manifold there. That would be about a 25' run. I can mount it in the boiler room, its just a little tight and more 1/2" runs from there to the radiators.
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BTW, what part of the country are you from?8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
I'm in NY.BTW, what part of the country are you from?
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Zman said:
What you are suggesting should work just fine. If you want to be 100% sure, post a drawing with the pipe lengths and specs on the rads and pump and someone here would surely be kind enough to run the numbers for you.apg12 said:Does it matter where the manifold is in relation to the circulator or boiler? My ideal setup would be to run 3/4 pex to the crawl space under the stairs and mount the manifold there. That would be about a 25' run. I can mount it in the boiler room, its just a little tight and more 1/2" runs from there to the radiators.
Please excuse my lack of artistic skills.
3/4" Feed/return from boiler to 1" manifold: 25'
1/2" Branch to 4k btu radiator - top of stairs: 10'
1/2" Branch to 1k btu radiator - bath: 15'
1/2" Branch to 4k btu radiator - bedroom: 20'
1/2" Branch to 7k btu radiator - living room: 35'
1/2" Branch to 5k btu radiator - living room (outside boiler room): 25'
The lengths listed about are for one way, so a loop would be double that length.
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This is the manifold I was considering using:
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Viega-15903-5-Loop-ProRadiant-Stainless-Steel-Manifold-Shut-Off-Balancing-Flow-Meters0 -
Looks good. It'd be nice if the supplies to the rads were in slab, just better for air removal, but as long as it's well purged at startup, and there's a quality air seperator at the boiler, go for it!0
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Seems a shame to pipe to the manifold and then all the way back to the boiler room for the LR rad, no? I would install a ¾" x ½" tee in the boiler room, a ½" zone valve and pipe to the radiator. That would mean a smaller manifold by one.8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
I know, Alan, that's been nagging me too since the first sketch. But for the sake of simplicity I let it go . What about a monoflo T setup for that one on the way to the manifold?0
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I did a complete renovation on the basement this summer, so without tearing everything up, the supplies will have to go through the walls.Bob Bona said:Looks good. It'd be nice if the supplies to the rads were in slab, just better for air removal, but as long as it's well purged at startup, and there's a quality air seperator at the boiler, go for it!
I'll probably have my boiler company make the final connections and purge the system to make sure it's done right.0 -
I agree, but that was all I really know how to do.Seems a shame to pipe to the manifold and then all the way back to the boiler room for the LR rad, no? I would install a ¾" x ½" tee in the boiler room, a ½" zone valve and pipe to the radiator. That would mean a smaller manifold by one.
I like your suggestion but its a little over my head. Any way to dumb it down and spell out exactly what I would need to do to make sure it gets the appropriate flow?0 -
Your flows look fine. With a 20 degree delta, you should get 3.5 gpm or 35,000 btu/hr on the low setting on the 015. That still gives you 2 more settings to go to if you find you have some extra drag in the system."If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
FYI, the Viega manifold appears to have compression fittings available for the 1/2", so you'd only need to buy/borrow/rent the prep tool.
IF it were me, I'd scrap the back tracking to the panel outside the boiler room entirely and put a larger single panel, or two in series, on the interior wall. Less pipe, less connections, smaller manifold...
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I notice your boiler feed is off...I like that0
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Good call!BBros said:FYI, the Viega manifold appears to have compression fittings available for the 1/2", so you'd only need to buy/borrow/rent the prep tool.
IF it were me, I'd scrap the back tracking to the panel outside the boiler room entirely and put a larger single panel, or two in series, on the interior wall. Less pipe, less connections, smaller manifold...8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab0 -
I wish I could go that route, but I plan to mount cabinets on that wall. The only option I would have then is kickspace heaters.BBros said:FYI, the Viega manifold appears to have compression fittings available for the 1/2", so you'd only need to buy/borrow/rent the prep tool.
IF it were me, I'd scrap the back tracking to the panel outside the boiler room entirely and put a larger single panel, or two in series, on the interior wall. Less pipe, less connections, smaller manifold...0 -
Thanks for all the help so far... you guys have been lifesavers!
I'm getting ready to tear out the old copper and baseboards. Can someone tell me the best way to drain the whole zone?
I figure once I depressurize and open up a section, I can use a shopvac to suck out the remaining water, but I have no idea how to open up the zone without spraying water all over the place.
Is there a drain or something I can open up without affecting the other zones?
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And one other question... Is there any issue with buying a manifold with one extra set of ports and leaving them shut off for future expansion?0
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You're going to want to shut all zone supply and return off, and the yellow Webstone ball valve/drain. Of course turn off power. Then open only the return for the basement zone. Then open the Webstone drain to relieve pressure in the basement zone. Then cut away as needed, a vac works great. Then shut return back off, close the Web drain, and open the remaining zones back up. Turn the power back on. You've now got the basement zone isolated.
Good idea with an extra loop on the manifold. Figure doing a short bridge loop across those unused ports.
Pipe the rad loops into the manifold as follows: first port run to rad, is last port back from that rad. I cannot find a way to put it more eloquently. But the goal is to better balance the zone.0 -
Makes perfect sense, thank you! Can you tell by my picture which side is return and which is supply? I assume the pump is in the supply side?Bob Bona said:You're going to want to shut all zone supply and return off, and the yellow Webstone ball valve/drain. Of course turn off power. Then open only the return for the basement zone. Then open the Webstone drain to relieve pressure in the basement zone. Then cut away as needed, a vac works great. Then shut return back off, close the Web drain, and open the remaining zones back up. Turn the power back on. You've now got the basement zone isolated.
Good idea with an extra loop on the manifold. Figure doing a short bridge loop across those unused ports.
Pipe the rad loops into the manifold as follows: first port run to rad, is last port back from that rad. I cannot find a way to put it more eloquently. But the goal is to better balance the zone.0 -
Your system pumps are on supply. I see the primary pump by feeder.0
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As for turning off the power, is shutting off each thermostat sufficient, or do I need to actually cut power to the system?0
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Turn off the power to the system. You should have a disconnect somewhere in the boiler room.0
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