Can I use my heat anticipator setting to reduce short cycling?

EBEBRATT-Ed

What @ChrisJ said is correct

TGALL

I ordered 2 Barnes and Jones BigMouth vents. I am going to try to install them myself. Here is a picture. That cooper pipe is 3/4" . Hopefully these new ones just screw into the same fitting. What I am a bit scared of is getting the existing one out. I think I will use 2 pliers , one holding that nipple thing in place and the other grabbing the body of the Gorton #1 and turning the Gorton#1 counter clockwise. Does this sound correct? I just don't want to bust the copper if these things are really locked together.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

Correct, but pliers are not going to do it for you.

You'll need pipe wrenches, or, if you get very lucky, crescent wrenches, but that's not a certainty to work.

These things are really locked together. You can bet that a gorilla installed it.

It is into a copper fitting, so that should make it easier.

I'd want at least a 12" crescent or adjustable wrench for each.

BobC

A pair of 12" crescent wrenches might work if they used teflon tape when that Gorton was installed. If they didn't I see a pair of 18" pipe wrenches in your future.

Bob

TGALL

@Hatterasguy - the varivalve on the small radiator is working great. And I found that combination with the heat anticipator set at .4 satisfies the thermostat in conjunction with the rest of the radiators heating up their spaces nicely. So, the overheating of the other rooms is now less. I picked a 33 EDR radiator yesterday and will replace that 23.4 EDR radiator that is there now. After doing that, I will play with the settings again.

On the post above, I indicated that I have ordered the 2 "BigMouth" main vents. i am not sure what that is going to do, but I do love experimenting on this system.

And, I think the key is going to be when I find a boiler guy to put the 1.0 GPH nozzle and get this system to put out less steam. I read back all the posts and just wanted to thank you.

ChrisJ

@Steamhead how low do you think you could downfire that boiler without a problem? Would a 0.85 GPH nozzle be pushing it?

What is the limitation on downfiring an oil burner? Shouldn't it be able to run any output (below the designed output) assuming the burner is setup for it?

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

@Steamhead how low do you think you could downfire that boiler without a problem? Would a 0.85 GPH nozzle be pushing it?

What is the limitation on downfiring an oil burner? Shouldn't it be able to run any output (below the designed output) assuming the burner is setup for it?

I'm kind of hoping that @Steamhead or @Gordo will answer this one -- to satisfy my own curiousity! My own thinking is that there would be a lower limit determined not so much by the burner but more by the size of the combustion chamber and the heat transfer section. The absurd limit, of course, would be to imagine a candle set in the combustion chamber...

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

ChrisJ said:

@Steamhead how low do you think you could downfire that boiler without a problem? Would a 0.85 GPH nozzle be pushing it?

What is the limitation on downfiring an oil burner? Shouldn't it be able to run any output (below the designed output) assuming the burner is setup for it?

I'm kind of hoping that @Steamhead or @Gordo will answer this one -- to satisfy my own curiousity! My own thinking is that there would be a lower limit determined not so much by the burner but more by the size of the combustion chamber and the heat transfer section. The absurd limit, of course, would be to imagine a candle set in the combustion chamber...

Those are my thoughts as well, considering the huge coal boilers burners are often mounted in.

I think the Beckett AFG needs a different baffle or something on the head when running a 0.85 GPH, but besides that why not? The reason you can't do it with atmospherics is the excess O2, but with a power burner, just cut down on the air supply.

It'd be a balance between taking forever to start steaming due to the water content vs building pressure while running.

TGALL

In my case , I now have a Carlin EZ1 burner. The original Becket failed 2 years ago.

I just did some measurements of my mains and horizontal run outs.

Long Main 45' (2 inch pipe) it supports 7 radiators with a total EDR of 169 and horizontal run-outs of 66' (mostly 1 1/4" some 1").

Short Main 38' (2 inch pipe) it supports 5 radiators including the small one in room with the thermostat total EDR 157 and horizontal run-outs of 41' (mostly 1 1/4" some 1") .

I bought an infrared thermometer and timed when each "T" gets to 219 degrees. The antler coupling to Gorton #1 on the short main got warm (145 degrees) faster (3:30) than the antler coupling to Gorton #1 on the long main (4:40). But then the long main goes right to 219 degrees (5:20), while the short main antler never reaches 219 degrees until short cycle on pressure (29:00). While system is not running for the 1:40 after hitting the upper pressure limit of 1.7 lbs. The short main valve opens and lets air in very load. The long main vent is quiet during the same time.

Just some observations before I put on the Barnes and Jones BigMouths.

And.. the small radiator on the short main with the heat-timer varivalve first section get 219 degrees at about the 4:40 mark.

Thanks all.

New England SteamWorks

The Big Mouths, and then possibly changes to radiator venting, are likely to solve your short cycling problem. No nozzle change required. You are over-sized, but by an amount that is less than commonly encountered in the field, and these units can be made to run without cycling on pressure.

The practical limit on down firing a boiler is the stack temp. Flue gases cannot be allowed to condense in the chimney. This usually means no more than 1 size, or in your case 1.0.

Absolutely no nozzle changes should be made by anyone who doesn't have combustion testing equipment, which presumably means they are licensed. You don't say where you are, but maybe one of us is nearby.

Increasing pressure while decreasing nozzle size will not have any desirable effect. Pressure and nozzle size have an inverse relationship.

Venting will solve your problem. Think of your pipes and radiators as clogged. The air can't get out, so the steam can't get in. And when that happens, -the pressure naturally rises.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Downfiring:
Stack temperature is the first thing to look at. I wouldn't go below 300 deg. Burner parts need to be checked to see if they are ok at the smaller firing rate. Combustion chamber size is usually not critical, 90 square " of floor area /gph is about minimum. I would fire it at connected radiation x 1.33 pick-up x1.25 (assuming 80% boiler efficiency) Then look at stack temp, Co2, O2, CO etc.

I would start with the same nozzle mfg, spray angle and pattern and see what kind of # you get. If the # are good then your all set..

TGALL

Thanks all. I am in central New Jersey if any one from this forum is within range, I trust you all. The job is yours.

ChrisJ

TGALL said:

Thanks all. I am in central New Jersey if any one from this forum is within range, I trust you all. The job is yours.

@EzzyT or @Dave0176 should be capable of this.
I believe they both have combustion analyzers and know how to use them.

TGALL

Question about the main vents... I was looking at "Balancing Steam Systems using a venting capacity chart" by Gerry Gill and Steve Pajek. The charts they draw have the main vents at the end of the mains just before the last run-out.

I have 2 main vents sitting up high off a 3/4" copper about 10 inches above my condensate return lines, which are about 4 or 5 inches below my mains. I believe my set up is normal because it matches the prior 2 houses that I lived in which had the main vents right over the boiler as opposed to vents further away from the boiler in some corner of the basement because that's were the mains end?

Jamie Hall

@TGALL -- it can be quite normal. Some two pipe systems -- in fact a good number -- vent the mains with crossover traps located at the ends of the mains, venting into the dry returns. The dry returns are then vented at the boiler, where they turn down. Which is what your system sounds like. Look for the crossover traps.

Some of these two pipe systems -- many vapour systems -- must not -- repeat, not -- have any vents anywhere on them except at the boiler where the dry returns end. To do so would defeat the devices with which they are equipped to maintain very low pressures across the radiators.

TGALL

I will have to look at the ends a little better. There are no additional pipes coming back to the boiler. I am pretty sure this is a 1 pipe system.

Jamie Hall

One pipe or two pipe? One pipe to each radiator, with air vents on the radiators? That's one pipe. Two pipes to each radiator, usually but not always with a trap on the low outlet? Two pipe. Your mention of a "condensate return line four to five inches below the mains" suggested to me that those were dry returns.

Dry returns in a two pipe system must be vented. As I mentioned, in many two pipe systems (but not all), the only vents must be on the dry returns.

TGALL

@jaimie Hall - sorry for giving out bad info. I have a one pipe system by that definition. I just called the 2 pipes that come down off the header as condensate return lines. With gravity in play those appear to be were water would make it back to the furnace. Not sure what term to call those pipes. They are 2 inch pipes that "T" to the header, but in a downwards direction. Unlike all the horizontal runs that "T" upward direction.

Fred

Many one pipe systems have the main vents at or near the end of the condensate returns as well, only because that was/is the most convenient place to locate them. While it is not necessary to vent the air out of the returns, on a one pipe system, if that is where the vents are located, it's fine. The goal is to remove all the air in the mains, past the last radiator run-out.If you have to place the vents beyond that, so be it.

TGALL

The Barnes and Jones Big Mouth vents arrived today. I just wonder why the thread where the air leaves the vent? Is there some other part that I can (or need) to screw into that?

ChrisJ

TGALL said:

The Barnes and Jones Big Mouth vents arrived today. I just wonder why the thread where the air leaves the vent? Is there some other part that I can (or need) to screw into that?

Because it started as a huge radiator trap.
It's modified to work as a vent. No need to screw anything into the female connector.

TGALL

I put the Big Mouths on this morning. The Gortons came off easy. It's warm here in NJ today (60 degrees) I did throw the system for a heat cycle by throwing the thermostat up to 75. I did hit a short cycle on pressure and my noisiest radiator still made some noise, i think less than usual. I think it was a longer heating cycle than most, i did not have my stop watch out.

Can't wait for a cold day. And put the thermostat back to it's 70/71 setting. To see the magnitude of the difference.

Still need a boiler professional to put the 1.0 nozzle on.

@EzzyT or @Dave0176 are either of you guys interested? or Available?

ChrisJ

TGALL said:

I put the Big Mouths on this morning. The Gortons came off easy. It's warm here in NJ today (60 degrees) I did throw the system for a heat cycle by throwing the thermostat up to 75. I did hit a short cycle on pressure and my noisiest radiator still made some noise, i think less than usual. I think it was a longer heating cycle than most, i did not have my stop watch out.

Can't wait for a cold day. And put the thermostat back to it's 70/71 setting. To see the magnitude of the difference.

Still need a boiler professional to put the 1.0 nozzle on.

@EzzyT or @Dave0176 are either of you guys interested? or Available?

Oh, so this sucky weather is your fault!
I've always found when I really want to test the heating system out, it gets warm out. I'm blaming you!

I had the A\C on in the car this morning!
It was 50F out, but I needed to shave a little off of that.


I want my winter back.

TGALL

Winter is back for the time being.

I don't think the Big Mouths helped my problem. if you recall, when I had the two Gorton #1's in the basement, I put a heat-timer varivalve on the small radiator. Steam would hit that radiator fast roughly 5 minutes from start up and all sections heated quickly left to right top to bottom.

Now, steam still reaches this radiator fast (maybe even slightly faster, not sure on that). But it now takes longer for the last sections to heat up. Though this radiator is still the 1st radiator to get each of its sections hot to 190 - 200 degrees.

The Barnes and Jones Big Mouth did make the radiators less noisy on start up (first 10 minutes of heating cycle). But, once pressure builds there is still one large radiator that hisses very much. The system still short cycles on for 3:50 off for 1:40.

The system does not short cycle on pressure until the 30 minute mark. I feel that a properly sized radiator should satisfy the thermostat in less than 20 minutes from the time it is totally hot for each section.

I think the basic issue is the radiator is too small. It is only 23.4 EDR. The one I picked up last Saturday is 33 EDR, but I have not attempted to install it yet because measurements show that it's valve sits about 1 inch higher than the existing one sits. And for some reason, this pipe has no play in it.

So, i would prefer to add some sort of female to male 1 inch extension coupling if something like that exists? Even if the new Valve that I bought is slightly taller? I would rather put the radiator up on some wood shims rather than start cutting the legs off the new radiator. If there is no coupling, I will saw the feet down , question is ... how much can you cut off the feet?

And will put a 1.0 GPH Nozzle on soon. Was hoping the Big Mouths had some relief for the short cycling.

Jamie Hall

On the cycling on pressure after thirty minutes and all the radiators all or mostly hot... no amount of venting is ever going to change that. You are making more steam than the radiators can condense, and the only way you can control the system at that point is to turn it on and off. Which is what is happening. The smaller nozzle may help.

TGALL

@Jamie Hall - yes. I hear that. Thanks. I have got to get that 1.0 nozzle installed.

In the last hour, I just swapped out 2 radiators that both sat pretty low. I just switched radiators from adjoining rooms. Put a 33.4 EDR in Dinning room where the thermostat is and put the small 23.4 EDR into the Living Room. I swapped the vents too so I keep the heat-timer varivalve in the room with thermostat.

I have got the windows open.. waiting for the thermostat to make its call.

I just want to see how fast I can satisfy that thermostat. And, If i can do it without short cycle and see if the other rooms are all hot enough.

ChrisJ

@TGALL
1.0 or smaller.

See how low the guy can get it while being happy with how it's burning.

If I remember right, my Burnham V83 which had an output of 91,000 used a 0.75 nozzle @ 140 PSI.

If it can be made to work, a 0.75 or 0.85 nozzle may work wonderfully.

TGALL

@chrisj - I think there is a 1.1 nozzle on there. Any thing higher than a 1.0 is going to be replaced with a 1.0. If a 1.0 is already on there, I will ask if we can try lower. But pretty sure that he put the 1.1 that I requested this past October.

Just finished a heating cycle with no short cycles. It just so happens that the heating cycle stopped at 31 minutes, which is just about the time I usually hit my first short cycle.

We'll see what happens the next few times, but i think the larger radiator EDR 33.4 did it. All the radiators got hot and the house is comfortably warm. I was probably right on the brink of a short cycle. And both valves where leaking until i really tightened them up. I have new valves to replace but was going to try that during a hot spell in case I run in to trouble and need to call in the professional. Can't wait to try though. If the leak comes back, I will probably give it a try tomorrow. I've got a spud wrench and a hack saw blade and my pipe wrenches ready to go.

So, I am not sure if the extra pressure being released from these temporary leaks allowed the cycle to finish without short cycle on pressure. Next heating cycle will tell.

Thanks all.

Fred

Probably the biggest reason those unions are leaking is because the valves and spuds are a matched pair and those old spuds have also likely formed to the valve they were originally coupled to. You may have problems getting them to not leak until you put the new valves and spuds on.

TGALL

For now there is no leaking. And heating cycles have been full length between 28 and 32 minutes. At the 26 minute mark the pressure starts to build and it is noticeable at a couple of radiators no matter what brand vent I put on them.

Is there a thermostat that would limit a heat cycle to 30 minutes maximum no matter what? Is that what 2 cycles per hour means? By 30 minutes maximum I mean ... even if the thermostat isn't satisfied, it goes off and remains off until it checks 30 minutes later?

That would work for me because the house always overshoots temperature and won't ask for heat again for 2 hours or so.

my heat cycles are 28-36 minutes on. and then generally off for 2 hours and then another 28-36 minutes and then off for 2 hours.

If I had on for 30 minutes off for 1 1/2 hours on 30 minutes off 1 1/2 hours. That would be nice.