Replacing original oil steam boiler, looking for tips

drawkcab

The house I'm in has a oil steam boiler with single pipes to cast iron radiators on the first floor of the house. From what I can assess, this boiler is original to the house which was built in 1942. Each time we have the furnace serviced they inform us it's in need of replacement. The oil tank is also in disrepair as we have been dealing with a slow leak for a few years now that our oil company has tried to fix multiple times. They insist we need to replace the tank but this is no small project.

Our house does have natural gas available but from what we've heard it's currently capped off at the street and will require coordination with the gas company and town to enable but it is possible. We would like to consider switching from oil to natural gas but I'm a bit over my head in terms of the number of options, variables, concerns, etc that this project will bring. I do know that we've been quoted some high dollar numbers to do this project as estimated by our local oil company sales agent. They also said we would need to add a steel liner to our chimney as part of this conversion as it's currently ceramic. The house is located in Massachusetts to identify the weather and temperatures for reference.

Our water heater is electric and also getting up there in age so it was recommended we change this out as part of the project. The water heater is from 2006 and I don't recall what its rated lifespan is (but I can look it up). We are considering replacing it with a gas water heater assuming this makes sense.

The house is 1403 sq feet (not including the basement which is 25% finished), between the two floors. The first floor is roughly 700 sqft and the only floor which has the cast iron radiators as part of the current oil-based steam heating. There are five radiators in total. The second floor had the dormer raised back in 2008/2009 and later we added electric baseboard heaters in each room with individual thermostats. There was no former heating solution on the second floor of this house so no heating pipes available. There is no central A/C in the house; we use window units in the summer time.

Many of the windows and walls have been renovated in the past 8-10 years to improve the insulation in case that matters for this discussion. What I'd like to know are what are the questions I should be asking to properly understand and manage any company/contractor/plumber that we may consider to do the work in replacing the heating system? Are there specific furnace types I should consider (or not consider)? Is this the time to consider changing anything else with the system or changing the type of system? I'm mostly looking to be pointed in the right direction to do some research so that I can educate myself in preparation of planning out this project.

Jamie Hall

Hatterasguy said:

drawkcab said:

What I'd like to know are what are the questions I should be asking to properly understand and manage any company/contractor/plumber that we may consider to do the work in replacing the heating system?

The very first thing necessary is for the contractor to verify the EDR (equivalent direct radiation) of the radiators in the building.

If they cannot or will not do that, you cannot size the boiler properly and you must dismiss them out of hand.

Amen, brother @ChrisJ . Second thing to do is to show them the door if they try to tell you to rip out the steam.

Once you have done that... there are a number of good oil burning boilers available. There are also a good number of gas burning boilers available. For steam, the efficiency is about the same either way. So, in the long haul, is the cost of the energy -- oil may be cheaper for a few years, then gas for a few... and so on.

So you will need to balance the costs and advantages of bringing gas service in to the house vs. the costs and advantages of a nice new oil tank, and then gas vs. oil boilers.

drawkcab

Thank you both for The feedback on this so far. With respect to calculating the EDR, is there a rough way I can do this to verify their estimates are within reason? I'll also start googling EDR to improve my understanding of it, so thank you for pointing this out.

As for oil vs natural gas, does one require less maintenance than the other or would that be a moot point to consider? I may be under the false impression that natural gas may need less maintenance throughout a season but hopefully some here can set me straight...or even point out that it doesn't matter as a decision factor.

Great points about the relative cost of gas service connection vs replacing a tank. We would also get part of our basement back by removing the old tank but that may not have much of a considerable value overall.

Scott M_2

While I agree with the others the FIRST thing that needs to be addressed is the leaking oil tank.There is no fix either get rid of it for gas or replace if staying with oil.ASAP.Shame on the oil company for not pumping it out and putting you on a temp tank.You should ask them who is going to pay the cleanup if it should pop another leak and 250 gallons go under the slab.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

Jamie Hall said:

Amen, brother @ChrisJ .

Now I'm totally insulted.

Yeah,

@Jamie Hall What's up with that!?

Jamie Hall

Hatterasguy said:

Jamie Hall said:

Amen, brother @ChrisJ .

Now I'm totally insulted.

ooooops... sorry!

EBEBRATT-Ed

I am sure to be "stabbed" for my comments but it's just my opinion.

#1 have someone do a heat loss of the house. Since you have added insulation and new windows and we are only talking 700 square feet on the steam heated floor RIP IT OUT and put in a hot water system. Your existing steam radiators will be way oversized & you would need an oversized boiler to carry that radiation load.

#2 Put new hot water radiation for the entire job and get rid of the electric water heater, install an indirect water heater get rid of the electric baseboard.

Oil or gas you can do either one. Since your oil tank has failed gas makes sense but check into the cost of the new gas service.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS NOT WHAT YOU INSTALL AND NOT THE CHEAPEST PRICE BUT THE RIGHT CONTRACTOR.

Where in MA. are you located?? Look in the find a contractor in this site.

We all love steam heat, myself included but it doesn't make sense here.

ChrisJ

@Steamhead @EBEBRATT-Ed said he needs to be stabbed, or something. I personally think booing and raspberries is adequate.

drawkcab

@Scott M
The tank is at a very slow leak and we've had them look at it several times. They never indicated it was in dire need of replacement but suggested we do it sooner than later so that's what we're doing now. We don't fill the tank either so at most we get 100 gallon delivers.

@Hatterasguy
Thanks for the feedback, I'll measure all the radiators when I get home and I'll post the details.

@EBEBRATT-Ed
It's possible that the current setup is spec'ed to heat mainly the first floor and passively the second floor as there was never heat upstairs and I believe it used to be one open room. It has since been divided into three bedrooms and a bathroom. It's possible the first floor is now over-provisioned for heat since the second floor is now managed separately.

I'm not sure we can afford to replace the entire setup and run new hot water pipes to the second floor. One detail that was left out is that we are also going to be covering the cost to do asbestus abatement/removal on a couple of the pipes in the basement as part of this project to rid the house of all the material properly. Mass Save has some provisions to assist with this.

I'm located in south west part of Middlesex County, MA if you know of decent contractors to do this kind of job I'm open to consider my options.

ChrisJ

@Charlie from wmass
Is more than decent and I think in your area.

Scott M_2

Hey it's your house and your fuel suppliers insurance premium. In my 35 plus years in the oil business I've seen a lot of small leaks turn into disasters.To me it's not worth the risk.good luck to you hope I don't see you on tv4 news

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

@Charlie from wmass
Is more than decent and I think in your area.

Second that- give him a call. And keep the steam.

Eastman

I don't think they make steam systems small enough for this application.

How about a Lochinvar Solution CB-045 buffered by a Comfort 55 indirect water heater? TRV the rads if they can be reused for hot water.

j a_2

Sure we all,I think, love steam....But it does make sense to look into replacing it with hot water...in your case.....I did oil to gas conversions for many years,,,,,They do not just simply reactivate your gas service...IIf your under the wing of National Grid I can post you your options....What is your zip code? FYI you may not want it to public you have a leaking tank...Had a homeowner with a leak and it migrated to an open sewer clean out....Town was doing spot checks and traced the leak back to his house...Not a good day for him, cost him a lot of monet

drawkcab

j a said:

Sure we all,I think, love steam....But it does make sense to look into replacing it with hot water...in your case.....I did oil to gas conversions for many years,,,,,They do not just simply reactivate your gas service...IIf your under the wing of National Grid I can post you your options....What is your zip code? FYI you may not want it to public you have a leaking tank...Had a homeowner with a leak and it migrated to an open sewer clean out....Town was doing spot checks and traced the leak back to his house...Not a good day for him, cost him a lot of monet

That has been our experience also regarding the conversion from oil to gas. We have to coordinate with Eversource and the town to get permission to do the gas conversion at this time of year. My town stops allowing street work to be done until April but given the tank and furnace issues we are applying for the exception to do the work. We also have to get a new gas meter put in so it is a bit of work and I'm not trying to trivialize the effort to get us converted to gas. There is an existing gas line coming into the house which is what stirred us into investigating this as an option.

I'll look into the option of converting to hot water given the size of the area needed to be heated. Maybe it makes sense in our situation.

drawkcab

Steamhead said:

ChrisJ said:

@Charlie from wmass
Is more than decent and I think in your area.

Second that- give him a call. And keep the steam.

Thanks for the recommendation. I've sent him a message to see if we can schedule some time to discuss the project.

drawkcab

Hatterasguy said:

Measure the height of each radiator, the depth of each radiator and count the number of sections of each radiator. Post the results on here. We'll do the calculation.

Natural gas requires less maintenance.

Edit, the listed sqft of this floor is 732.

Kitchen Radiator:
Height 22" on each end, 20" per section
Depth 4.5"
Number of sections end to end: 12

1st floor bed/den:
Height 22" on each end, 20" per section
Depth 4.5"
Number of sections end to end: 16

1st floor bath:
Height 22" on each end, 20" per section
Depth 4.5"
Number of sections end to end: 8

1st floor dining room:
Height 22" on each end, 20" per section
Depth 4.5"
Number of sections end to end: 16

1st floor living room:
Height 22" on each end, 20" per section
Depth 4.5"
Number of sections end to end: 26

Abracadabra

Need a picture of the radiator to determine whether radiator is tube or column type and number of tubes/columns.

drawkcab

Here's the radiator in the dining room. They are all of this style but in varying lengths. I listed the number of sections in my info above which included the end caps.

Abracadabra

Not sections... tubes.. take a pic from the side of the radiator. Looks like a 3 or 4 tube

MilanD

@drawkcab

To HO/ OP: Calculating rad EDR:
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.columbiaheatingsupply.com/page_images/Sizing%20Cast%20Iron%20Radiator%20Heating%20Capacity%20Guide.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwj21ubPn43RAhXly4MKHVL5DHUQFggiMAI&sig2=hgaaa0kWgZzfmochvnSeJA&usg=AFQjCNH-O16J9nhiTowXFw4OUGDL2WK7MA

Fred

I suspect it's a 5 tube @Abracadabra but we do need pictures to confirm.

drawkcab

Abracadabra said:

Not sections... tubes.. take a pic from the side of the radiator. Looks like a 3 or 4 tube

Sorry about that, I misunderstood. It looks like 4 tubes on all radiators in the house.

drawkcab

MilanD said:

@drawkcab



To HO/ OP: Calculating rad EDR:

So based on the guide you linked to...do these numbers make sense?

4 tube @ 22" = 4.00
Number of Sections:
12 * 4.0 = 48 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 11,520
16 * 4.0 = 64 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 15,360
8 * 4.0 = 32 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 7,680
16 * 4.0 = 64 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 15,360
26 * 4.0 = 104 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 24,960
Sum radiation heating demand: 74,880 BTUs

j a_2

Hatterasguy said:

4 tube rads @ 22" = 2.5 per section.

So, your total for the building is 46,800 BTUH.

Too small for a steam boiler.

I totally agree, but I am sure someone will gladly put a Big Big one for him....Just because if big is good bigger is better....Honestly I know it's a bit expensive but radiant, would be great

Danny Scully

Am I missing something? That's 195 sqft. Burnham IN3 or New Yorker, crown, force equivalents are all within that size range. In other words, stay with steam and install any of these models.

ChrisJ

Danny Scully said:

Am I missing something? That's 195 sqft. Burnham IN3 or New Yorker, crown, force equivalents are all within that size range.

I think everyone is upset because the radiators are grossly oversized for the heatloss.

I mean, not like that ever happens.............

drawkcab

Hatterasguy said:

4 tube rads @ 22" = 2.5 per section.

So, your total for the building is 46,800 BTUH.

Too small for a steam boiler.

Thanks, I used the wrong part of the chart in the document when calculating. I realize I'm ignorant to a lot of this which is why I have basic questions...so if someone comes out to spec a steam boiler does that mean it won't work well or that I'm wasting money on it because the system is too small (or both)?

The current system looks to be original to the house and it seems to be able to adequately heat the first floor but I can't say at what expense or inefficiencies.

I'm not dead set on steam vs radiant vs anything else. I'm just learning and trying to understand more about this to properly plan the heat.

drawkcab

Hatterasguy said:

He likes the CI rads. A bit of work to add the returns, but not extraordinary since it is the first floor. The rads will be fine for HW. Run some 3/4" copper returns and he'd be all set.

I may have been under the wrong assumption that to convert to radiant heat I would be removing the CI rads, no? I am not attached to the CI rads, I actually think they take up a good chunk of space given the small size of the house. The large one in the living room is a pain to manage furniture around given its size.

Bob Bona_4

Doesn't sound like there's any historical incentive to keep the rads, so the HW emitters can even be hot water baseboard. That'd be your most cost effective option.

Danny Scully

If you choose not to replace your steam system with forced hot water, you have a choice between the Burnham IN3, the New Yorker CGS30C, the Crown BSI069, or the Force FORCESTM03 (to name a few).

Eastman

@drawkcab
What does radiant mean to you? What would you replace the rads with?

ChrisJ

To me, in my non-professional opinion,
Radiant in floor is usually a disaster, especially once everyone gets done putting furniture and throw rugs down.

In wall and ceiling is fine, in floor is asking for trouble unless combined with the above methods.

Eastman

I really like heated flooring. But I also really like high temperature heat sources. They actually radiant a significant amount of thermal energy and you can feel it.

j a_2

I installed quite a bit of it...Including my own home....I think it's the best form of heating at least for the new england area....

ChrisJ

j a said:

I installed quite a bit of it...Including my own home....I think it's the best form of heating at least for the new england area....

You think in floor radiant is better than in wall and in ceiling?

j a_2

I do yes. But that's just me, I installed it my daughters and played around with it a bit....put it under the tub,and in the inside shower walls....Trouble with walls are outside walls, and ceiling defies hot air rising...jmo....when my Grand Kids come over to my house they sit and play in the tiled mud room with radiant heat....

Eastman

How about replace rads with cast iron baseboard. And have the return from the baseboard slink through the joist bays under the floor?

Steamhead

drawkcab said:

So based on the guide you linked to...do these numbers make sense?

4 tube @ 22" = 4.00
Number of Sections:
12 * 4.0 = 48 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 11,520
16 * 4.0 = 64 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 15,360
8 * 4.0 = 32 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 7,680
16 * 4.0 = 64 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 15,360
26 * 4.0 = 104 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 24,960
Sum radiation heating demand: 74,880 BTUs

Hatterasguy said:

4 tube rads @ 22" = 2.5 per section.

So, your total for the building is 46,800 BTUH.

Too small for a steam boiler.

These are "small-tube" radiators, not the older column (which is where that 4 sq. ft./section came from) or large-tube ones (which is where the 2.5 sq. ft./section came from- HUGE differences, eh, gentlemen?). In "E.D.R.", under Burnham for example, you'd be using the Slenderized charts instead of the Fero ones.

So:

4 small tube @ 22" = 1.6 Sq. Ft/section:
Number of Sections:
12 * 1.6 = 19.2 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 4,608
16 * 1.6 = 25.6 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 6,144
8 * 1.6 = 12.8 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 1,920
16 * 1.6 = 25.6 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 6,144
26 * 1.6 = 41.6 sqft EDR * 240 BTU = 9,984
Sum radiation heating demand: 124.8 sq. ft./28,800 BTUs

Danny Scully said:

..... you have a choice between the Burnham IN3 (158 sq. ft.), the New Yorker CGS30C (175), the Crown BSI069 (179), or the Force FORCESTM03 (175) (to name a few).

The Crown, Force and New Yorker are essentially the same boiler. Also we have the Utica PEG-075 which is also sold as the Columbia CEG-075 (196) or the Weil-McLain EG-30 (196). I'm sure there are others but you get the idea.

Note that on hot-water, this amount of radiation would only give off 18,720 BTU per hour. So I doubt seriously that these radiators could properly heat the house on hot-water. If they could, you'd have to run them hot enough that a condensing boiler would not be condensing most of the time. Bye-bye, overhyped fuel savings- hello, lawyers.

@drawkcab , the best and simplest way to go is to install a gas-fired steam boiler of the proper small size. Period. And you could probably add steam radiators to the second floor if the pipes could handle the load- have a Steam Man take a look.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

The photo of the radiator would surely indicate that it is not 4.5" width, which is the slenderized rad.

The rad certainly appears to be close to 7" width, which is the standard for the tube type radiator.

Furthermore, the total EDR of 125 square feet is a bit ridiculous.

Maybe the OP can measure the width of the rad and confirm.

They look an awful lot like the thin tube radiator in my livingroom.

An old picture from when we bought the house. That's a 60sqft monster, but it's thin tube.

Steamhead

In one of the pics you can see "National Art Radiator" cast into the iron around the upper pipe connection with the plug in it.

The National Art radiator was a small-tube type. Here is a thread where it is described:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/147879/national-art-radiators

The distance between the centerline of one section to the centerline of the next section should be 1-3/4 inches. No large-tube radiator was made with that section spacing.

I'm sure @drawkcab can confirm this.