Apartment dweller needs help!

hmaccammon

For the past 14 years I have lived in a building in NYC, constructed in 1929. It's a three-floor, 12 unit garden apartment complex. For the past 2 or 3 years, since we got a new building superintendent, the heating has not worked properly.

The building has a two-pipe heating system made by Veco. The photos I have attached are of the radiator in the kitchen and a close up of the Veco label.

The basic problem is that none of the radiators heat up completely. The larger living room and bedroom radiators (a little taller and about twice the length of the kitchen radiator), pretty much heat up all the way across the top, but only about half way down each of the fins. The radiator in the kitchen only heats about the top four or five inches of the first three or four of the fins closest to the steam pipe. With the bathroom radiator, only the top two or three inches of the first two or three fins closest to the steam pipe heat up. Please note that my kitchen and bathroom radiators are the farthest radiators in building from the boiler. Because of the lack of heat from the kitchen and bathroom radiators, about 25% of my apartment space is getting little to no heat.

I have talked to the superintendent numerous times over the past 3 or 4 winters about the problem. Generally, when the temperature goes below freezing outside, the temperature in my apartment can be as cold as 58 to 60 degrees--on average about 64 or 65 degrees-- (I bought a small table top room thermometer a couple years ago.)

Over the years, his explanations to me as to why my apartment is cold have included: "It's cold outside"; "because you have a corner apartment and it gets more wind"; and "because your apartment is furthest from the boiler and other apartments closer to the boiler are really warm". I absolutely know these excuses are not valid and there is a distinct possibility that he is ill-equipped to handled the management/maintenance of the heating system.

My upstairs neighbors have the same problem, so I don't think it's an individual radiator issue. I have never spoken to any other neighbors about the problem. I honestly think that the heating system itself is not being utilized properly.

I'm tired of using space heaters to be comfortable and I am planning to have my first talk of the winter with this guy and I just want to get some advice, to be armed with information that I can be confident about concerning how to attempt to solve this problem. I am hoping that someone out there might be able to provide at least a couple of distinct possibilities of what the problem might be, which I can articulate to him. If my superintendent doesn't listen this time, I'm taking it to the landlord and I want to know what I'm talking about.

Thanks in advance to anyone with suggestions.

Jamie Hall

How is the boiler being controlled? Things to look for: pressure? Should be below 2 psi maximum and lower is better. Is it in a timer? How is the timer controlled -- it needs to run longer in cold weather. Thermostat? Where is the thermostat? Etc.

hmaccammon

Thanks for the quick response Jamie. I have thought that one of the issues might be that the pressure wasn't set correctly. I've been learning more that I ever thought I would need to know about heating systems online! I will mention the 2 psi max to the super. Unfortunately, I don't have much information about the boiler, as a tenant I have no access. I don't know where the building's thermostat is, but as far as the timing of the heat is concerned, it comes up about every hour and a half for about 10 minutes or so. I've been thinking, particularly when it's really cold, that this should be more often, so I'll ask him about the timing issue. Thanks so much! You've been very helpful!

nybigapple

I've been frequenting this board the last few weeks as a small landlord in nyc trying to fix some problems. I know little about heating, but I know about being a landlord. The little I know of heating tells me, there is very little a tenant could do on his own to figure out what's wrong. To get a full picture of where the problem could be, you need access to the boiler, as well as all the main piping extending from it. As a tenant you will not have not access to this, and it is not your responsibility to go looking for it. This is why you pay rent.

The temperature range you have given would put your landlord in violation of basic heat requirements. Regardless of circumstances, at this time of year, you should be getting 68 degrees during the day(When it's 55 outside) and 55 at night(when it's 40 outside).

I wouldn't fuss about a degree, but if you're topping out at let's say 64.5 that's significant. Many supers don't know about heating beyond the basics. But no supers/landlords are going to spend money when they can get away with not doing it.

You have the right to complain to HPD about insufficient heat. Talk to your super about the lack of heat. Politely mention you have a thermometer and you're not getting the minimum required heat, you've been asking about this for years, and if not fixed in a timely manner you'll be filing complaints with HPD. You'll get more heat. Even if that means not fixing your radiators, and simply blasting the heating more, cooking the apartments closest to the boiler.

hmaccammon

Yes, I agree. I'm not going to argue if it's 67 degrees in the apartment, but when I come home from work and it's 60 degrees, it's very frustrating. My neighbors and I are just trying to handle this in the most tactful, appropriate way. I do get the impression that the landlord & super will do only what's necessary in order to contain costs, but there has to be some common ground so that my neighbors and I can have a livable environment. I'm hoping to be able to ask the right questions to come to some sort of mutual understanding. Thanks so much for your post.

KC_Jones

I agree with above, if the landlord is doing the minimum they won't budge unless it's by force.

If I was a betting man I would say the building has a Tekmar or equivalent and they are turning it down as much as they think they can to save money. Your rent is paying for heat and you should get it.

nybigapple

Do you landlord a favor and don't just file a complaint. Give them a warning first and a chance to fix the situation.

The likely scenario is that the super will just raise the pressure or raise the heat timer. Won't fix your radiator issue, but will supply you with the required heat.

Jamie Hall

Do talk to the super first. Chances are that he may not be all that well versed in the intricacies of steam, but just trying to do his job. And chances are he'd like to do a decent job, within the constraints the landlord has put on him. And he just may work much more happily with someone who approaches him positively. May not, too, of course -- but it's worth a try.

BobC

I agree with Jamie, a little sugar makes the medicine go down easier. If he sees you as an ally things will be easier.

If he doesn't you always have the hammer.

Bob

MilanD

There are 2 point here. I'm not sure how things are in NYC, but in Ohio, in my county, if you talked to a "manager", or a "super", and no solution was achieved for heat, you call the health department. It's a violation. Owners hate hearing from government. It's the paperwork, and it puts them on the radar as deadbeats. And then they get scrutinized. They don't like being scrutinized. Being scrutinized costs money and time.

You may look up who owns the building, or just contact whomeve your rent check is made out to. And tell them this has been going for years (frankly, you are WAY more patient than I'd ever be) and your next call will be to the city and your attorney. And tell them the super is brushing you off. This may get their attention. Make a video and attach to an email.

Fact also is that, and we all know someone like this (and if you don't, it's probably you!), who complains about anything and everyrhing... So super is a gatekeeper of sorts, to a point. Deals also with crazies... If he doesn't know you, you are just another complainer. So, biting is in order.

Now a side note on absentee landlords, supers and on-site maintenance people... I was looking at a building to invest here in my neck of the woods just today. 2 4-Units side by side. Looking at the furnaces in the basement of one, with the listing agent, the "manager/maintenance" man, my agent, and my wife who is my partner in RE investing. On the floor, pool of liquid (it wasn't clean water) by the furnace, next to sewer stack. I look up, flash light in hand, and see dry rotted floor joist, collapsed old-stle batroom backer mesh with mortar sloping over the rotted joist... All wet... And, now of a sudden, water starts pouring down, outside the stack... Length of downpour consistant with a toilet fush... Maybe 10% of water volume came down on the floor... Obviously a rocking toilet and a broken wax ring. Wax ring costs 10 bucks, or less. Replacing it and securing the toilet with some shims (or if you are old school - plaster/grout mix, never to move again), 30 minutes. Max 2 hours to install a new flange and fix any issues with flange. At any rate, it took years to get to this state... Max 2 hours to fix. Owner, agent, "maintenance man", apparently all unaware of this up to this point in time. Sure.... And someone swept the debris from the floor before we came. Care to guess who?

So, sometimes people as supers have in their interest to collect their fees and not do anything, while owner is clueless of what's going on. Buffer... Because, some people are just less than. I dislike people who are less than.

So, call the owner and give him/her/corporation, 24 hours. Then report to the appropriate government agency. And call your lawyer. You may get away with not paying your full rent, or any rent until problem is fixed. I mean, it's been 3 years...

Good luck.

DanHolohan

VECO runs on ounce of pressure, not pounds. If the pressure is too high the steam will enter the returns and air-lock some of the radiators. That leads to no heat.

This system needs a vaporstat and good end-of-main venting.

Grallert

I was going to ask about VECO. the return trap looked unusual.

DanHolohan

There's a section on VECO in The Lost Art of Steam Heating.

Grallert

I'll open it right now.

MilanD

So what you are saying @Dan Holohan : every time someone says heat is low, the right-turn-only screwdriver is being employed?

DanHolohan

That seems to make sense to those who don't know what they're doing.

hmaccammon

What do you mean by employing the right-turn-only screwdriver?

ratio

Rightie-tightie is generally an increase in whatever.

nybigapple

hmaccammon said:

What do you mean by employing the right-turn-only screwdriver?

A lot of people try to compensate for problems by increasing steam pressure. Particularly in circumstances where the farthest radiators aren't getting heat. This can be counter-intuitive for many reasons. In your circumstance Dan said, "If the pressure is too high the steam will enter the returns and air-lock some of the radiators. That leads to no heat. This system needs a vaporstat and good end-of-main venting."

That might very well be the issue with your heating. Start there when talking to your super. Ask him what the pressure on the boiler is set at.

nicholas bonham-carter

This might be a good test for the new city team experts!--NBC

http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2016/12/new-york-city-cracks-down-on-steam-heating/508925/#site-header

MilanD

As @nybigapple said, people not knowledgeable in steam tend to think increasing pressure solves lack of heat problems. Dan refers to them using a "right-turn-only" screwdriver. Go to pressureteol and crank it up using your right-turn-only screwdriver. Although I am not at all familiar with your system, Dan is. But in general, you need steam pressure to be as low as possible for good steam heating system to work well. Ounces really.

MilanD

As your problem started with the arrival of new super, it's quite possible that each time you told him you were cold, he cranked up the pressure, which in fact made things progressively worse.

Unless you pursue other course, get a guy a six pack and invite him over for dinner. You may educate him and get things resolved.

hmaccammon

Thanks so much. Things have definitely been clarified for me with these posts.

I sat down with my upstairs neighbor last night, who apparently nudged the super in the right direction, by asking if it might be time to approach the landlord about the heating . We still have the same issue with the radiators, but this morning the temperature in my apartment was a comfortable 68 degrees (exactly). It seems the super has increased the heating cycles to once an hour. This is a short-term solution, I know. Today, it's just above freezing outside, about 5 or 10 degrees warmer than it has been in the past 2 or 3 days. I have the feeling once the temperature drops again, we may be back where we started.

So, my neighbor and I are going to take all of your suggestions, particularly concerning the pressure, and hope he is receptive. If not then it is on to the landlord. If that doesn't work, then the housing authority.

It's a shame really. As I mentioned in my first post, I have lived here for 14 years and never experienced a problem with the heat, never had the need to purchase a room thermometer to make sure legal requirements were being met, and never needed a space heater.

MilanD

It's about heat loss vs. heat input. Warmer weather outside draws heat through the walls at a slower rate than on colder days so it takes longer for heat to dissipate through the outside walls. So, if radiators are at the same temperature as before, you have only warm weather to thank it's warmer outside and thus, inside. I'd still get on them a lot about fixing this. It may be a simple fix that will just need some expert troubleshooting.

neilc

can you, did you show the super this thread ?
read it to him ??

DavidK_2

I'd talk to other neighbors, not just upstairs. I'd talk to super, give them a few days to fix it. Talk to owner, give them a few days to fix it. Then talk with the city. Actually you might want to talk to the city first, ask what your rights are