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Will this system set up work

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wiatt
wiatt Member Posts: 8
edited December 2016 in THE MAIN WALL
First off. I am super nervous about posting these photos. I am the plumber that piped this system. I am comfortable fitting the parts with strong guidance. I did not have strong guidance on this system... I rather be wrong and learn at this point.

Please point out the errors I have made. It will be getting wired up on Friday and I am not 100% confident in this set up.

Will this system work as is? Should have found this board before filling it....


njtommy

Comments

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,399
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    That's a nice looking job.

    The major thing that I see off hand is that you need to add a circulator to the primary loop or nothing will work.

    A minor issue would be the indirect circ should be on the supply side; that way, it's pumping away from the PONPC. All secondary circs see the entire primary loop as the PONPC. Therefore, they should pump away from it, not into it.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,399
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    A question regarding the radiant floors: I can see that one is in slab. Is the other staple up? If so, it's gonna require a different water temp - probably higher than the slab. If that's the case, it should have been pipped upstream of the slab, not down.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • wiatt
    wiatt Member Posts: 8
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    Thanks Ironman,

    So to fix this set up for sure I need to just add one more circ pump on the main loop.

    The second set of infloor is for the garage, they wanted it set low just to dry the floors in the winters. Glycol filled.

    I had a heating guy spec and size this job and he sent only 4 pumps total. He sizes it but is not very helpful for questions. One on the time saving header, 3 extras. Should I have piped it like this photo then?
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,607
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    I agree with Bob that this will "work" if you add a circulator. I also think the workmanship is superb.

    It woulds take less circulators and piping if you piped it like the attached excerpt from the manual.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,399
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    It would be less work to add another circulator.

    Move the MBR to the right and place the circ to the left of it.


    You may need a little more space between the first Tee to the indirect and the Ell upstream of it:

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    Zman
  • wiatt
    wiatt Member Posts: 8
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    Thank you for the kind words of the workmanship. I just wish I got the system designed correctly. Thank you for your help so far guys.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,399
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    Glad to help.

    Keeping hanging out here and asking questions. You'll get a real good hydronics education at no cost.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    SWEIdelta T
  • wiatt
    wiatt Member Posts: 8
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    I have another job coming up. Same set up. Same boiler. They sent the same parts. How do I use their time saver header plus 3 pumps with no zoning parts for the infloor. Pipe off the left of the boiler feeding all my heating elements. And then return them all on the right side of the boiler header?
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,399
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    'No zoning parts"? Do you mean no manifolds?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • wiatt
    wiatt Member Posts: 8
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    I was meaning zone valves. Next job is identical. One manifold for the garage loop. One manifold for the basement and one indirect tank.

    One time saver manifold header. Thing under the boiler. An additional 3 pumps sent in the order.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,607
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    wiatt said:

    I have another job coming up. Same set up. Same boiler. They sent the same parts. How do I use their time saver header plus 3 pumps with no zoning parts for the infloor. Pipe off the left of the boiler feeding all my heating elements. And then return them all on the right side of the boiler header?

    That's how I would do it.
    Make sure the circs have internal check valves and do it just like the manual except with an extra zone.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    Ironmandelta T
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,399
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    Do it just like the diagram that you posted above. It's called the moose antler, because if you flip the return line to the left, that's what it resembles. Keep the common piping at least one size larger, two would be preferred.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • wiatt
    wiatt Member Posts: 8
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    Thanks again.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    edited December 2016
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    I don't think I would add a pump on your primary loop. Cause right now it looks like you have 2 primary loops and then running a 5th pump for no reason. I would just get rid of the closely space Ts and the bottom of your boiler replace them with 2 90s. Then your loop that goes all the way around to feed each zone becomes your primary piping.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,607
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    njtommy said:

    I don't think I would add a pump on your primary loop. Cause right now it looks like you have 2 primary loops and then running a 5th pump for no reason. I would just get rid of the closely space Ts and the bottom of your boiler replace them with 2 90s. Then your loop that goes all the way around to feed each zone becomes your primary piping.

    This is the simplest way to make this work.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,399
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    njtommy said:

    I don't think I would add a pump on your primary loop. Cause right now it looks like you have 2 primary loops and then running a 5th pump for no reason. I would just get rid of the closely space Ts and the bottom of your boiler replace them with 2 90s. Then your loop that goes all the way around to feed each zone becomes your primary piping.


    But then he'd also have to move the MBR to the right side of the boiler to be pumping away.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    delta T
  • delta T
    delta T Member Posts: 884
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    Agreed, the least costly and least amount of work to make this work will be to add a pump to the 'second primary loop'.

    OP you do good work, something that is rare to find these days. We all make mistakes, and in your case it is a relatively easy one to fix. Never stop learning from your mistakes and you will make an excellent hydronics tech. At this point, what you need to do is to start reading. A lot. A great place to start is the idronics technical journal published by Caleffi. Volume 1 is on hydraulic separation, which will explain exactly what you did wrong here and why. It is available for free here:

    http://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/technical-magazine

    scroll down to see download links for all 19 issues.

    I would also highly suggest getting 'Modern Hydronic Heating' by John Sigenthaler, it has everything you could ever want to know about hydronic heating and system design.

    'Pumping Away' by Dan Holohan is available for purchase on this site and explains pumping and its relationship to the point of no pressure change in a direct and very easy to understand way.

    Keep moving forward!
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    edited December 2016
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    @Ironman that's is a good point. Even tho taco air separator should stay in it's place do to it being in supply side. He could just cut in a t on the right hand side for the make up. Look at the price for the pump and webstone valves. It's not a terrible price, but can stilll be done cheaper.

    With out a doubt it's very clean and nice work.
  • wiatt
    wiatt Member Posts: 8
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    Thank you again, I will be checking out the suggested books and technical journals starting tonight.
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,458
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    You really should take the pump on the bottom right and rotate it so the junction box is on top , or the side, as that will make it much easier to wire and work on later. Al you have to do is take out the four screw holding the pump end on and rotate it.
    Also, what are the hangers you are using. I haven't seen them in our area?
    Rick


  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,450
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    They usually like you to pipe the indirect loop before that boiler manifold. Direct to the boiler and back. They have wiring contact in the control just for this purpose.
  • wiatt
    wiatt Member Posts: 8
    edited December 2016
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    The hangers are called ring stays up where we are. Maybe pipe stand offs.

    We will be flipping that one pump housing.

    Is there any way to wire this system to work properly with out re piping the indirect before the manifold ?

    The guy trying to wire it up today has told me that i indeed should have had Tee's right off the boiler then the manifold attached the tee's. those tees should go to the indirect.
  • john p_2
    john p_2 Member Posts: 367
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    I like those black, pipe hangers used on the copper pipe...can they be ordered online?