Oil/Steam - Heat not making it to 2nd floor

RacerX00

Hi all, thanks in advance, I tried to provide relevant floor plans and photos, more than happy to provide more if needed. I bought this house on Long Island last year and I've been having some issues getting heat to the second floor, in fact, the pipes froze in that second floor bathroom at one point. My father is a heating and plumber contractor but not close by, he had me do everything I've done so far.

First, the floor plans:



We hit it two fold, first we adjusted the pressure, before it was @ .5 and between 1 and 2, this is what we have now:



Then next he had me go out and replace valves on both the riser and at the radiators.

Second floor radiator old Maid o Mist (they passed a blow test, but I put on the Gortons anyway):



The old riser valve, it was definitely clogged on top of the fact that it was a pinhole:


After the changes I think we successfully brought more heat to the second floor bedroom radiator but the bathroom radiator is still ice cold. To be honest, I have no idea where the steam is coming from for that radiator, it could be an entirely new riser behind walls.

So my question: What do you do here? Is there anything else I can do? The first floor valves are pinholes across the board, checked them all (on purpose, right? To force the steam up?)

Thanks all!

Danny Scully

Where are you located in Long Island? I operate Scully's Plumbing with my brother and father in the Nassau County area, and would be glad to help if I can. Check us out at http://www.scullysplumbing.com

One thing you should do though, is turn that pressuretrol back down, maybe even lower. Leave the cut in at 0.5 and turn the diff down to 1.

Jamie Hall

Get @Danny Scully on the job. He's one of the best, and isn't far. And do change the pressuretrol as he suggests. Boosting the pressure isn't going to help.

While you are waiting for him to show up, try and figure out where that bathroom radiator gets its steam from. It is possible that water is trapped in the pipe, which will shut it off as effectively as a valve!

RacerX00

Hey Danny, I'm probably within 3 miles from you in Oceanside, small world (or Island).

Are you saying I should put the pressuretrol back because it didn't have the intended effect? I thought the bedroom radiator might have gotten hotter from both the higher airflow valves (Gorton #D on the radiators, #1 on the riser) and from the higher cut in and diff. Is it that much of a drop in efficiency? When I asked my stepfather that question he was like, "this is oil and steam heat, it's like trying to tune a volcano, don't worry about that right now."

Fact of the matter is these are all band-aid solutions as we're ripping out the steam system and replacing it with a hot water one come spring when the heating season is over and my stepfather can send out some trucks to do it (he's in Brooklyn). There's nothing else you can think of to try? I'd rather not have to pay $200 for someone to walk through the door to change a pressure valve at a separate riser I didn't know existed

He's envisioning hiring a local contractor for a lot of the work though come spring, I also have a few oddball plumbing jobs I need done like my dishwasher isn't trapped at all (yummy, sewage dishes). I'll give you a ring tomorrow to discuss and see if there's a fit.

RacerX00

Oh it might be relevant that the cold radiator is warm by the control valve. Here's a pic of that radiator:



Here's the new riser valve complete with complementary asbestos (I was careful, all I did was take a cheese grater to it hyperventilated over it):


And finally, just because I took the picture, the size of the Maid-O-Mists on the first floor, did not replace these:

Danny Scully

Thanks for the kind words @Jamie Hall! While you are local @RacerX00, and I'd love to help, I made a promise to myself to save steam systems, not kill them. I don't want to confuse you or disagree with your father, but if you'd like to save your existing steam system, I'm your man. This would not result in a comprise of efficiency, comfort/control, but rather quite the opposite. We could also provide you with whatever plumbing needs you may have. Thanks in advance for the consideration.

RacerX00

On the contrary, we're both people who enjoy hearing what others have to say. He does brownstones in Brooklyn in high priced renovations, radiant floors or crazy complicated hot water systems. If there's a good contractor on LI who does houses and says do it differently, he'd listen. In fact, his son thinks he's nuts, says just convert to gas, keep the boiler simple and call it a day.

What he wants to do is zone out every room and use a condensing boiler with an indirect tank for domestic hot water. He knows he's spending a lot more than I'll receive back in heating savings, I think he just kind of feels like it's his piece of art.

Me? I'm the kind of guy who says if the house was built in the 30's with plaster walls, when I renovate, I fix or redo the plaster. On that front, the charm of a noisy steam system is endearing to me. You'll hear from me tomorrow

Danny Scully

Sounds good @RacerX00! And, just so you know, there's an easy way to zone ever room with steam heat. They're called thermostatic radiator valves. You can also use an indirect tank with a steam boiler as well. Finally, a proper maintained steam system makes no noise I look forward to speaking with you, and have a great night.

RacerX00

The plot thickens. I found a secret radiator at the top of the landing. The air valve was clogged (could barely blow through it) and I put one of the old larger bore maid-o-mists on it and it started to get hot right away. I then tossed the thermostat up to 90 and tried to see if that bathroom radiator ever got enough pressure to make heat, 77º ambient reading at the thermostat, the answer was no. In fact, whereas previously the right of the radiator would get warm when set at 70-73 with roughly same outside temp, now not even that happens.

KC_Jones

For reference to the OP I sit here basking in the glory of my silent steam heating system. The only sound it makes that I can here is the click on the thermostat when it turns on or off. Save the mountain of money you would spend converting and instead spend a tiny amount and keep the steam, your wallet will thank you....many many thousands of times.

RacerX00

2nd riser discovered, no valve on it:

Jamie Hall

Ah. Well, @RacerX00 , you are planning to rip it out and convert? That's a shame, and will cost you a mint of money beyond what making the steam work right would -- even if you get the labour cheap from your family.

And, like @KC_Jones , I'm quite content with my perfectly silent (well, not quite; I can hear the boiler fire up when I'm right over it) highly efficient (86%) steam system, which is 80 plus years old and going strong. The hot water heat in one of the other places which I care for is young (20) and well installed and cared for -- and endless work. Just the way of it. That other does pay me well for the trouble, though, come to think of it...

Fred

I can tell you that single Gorton #1 On the return pipe is no way near enough to properly vent that main. Measure that main, from the boiler to that vent and tell us the length and diameter of that main and we can tell you how much venting you need on there.
Also, take that cover off of that bathroom radiator and see if it has proper pitch, back to the supply pipe.

Is that actually a riser, in your picture or does it just feed a radiator?

BobC

I have the same radiator in my bathroom, it has a maid o mist #5 on it and gets blazing hot.

When you have the time remove the vent from that bath radiator (when it is cool and the boiler isn't running) and turn up the thermostat by 3 or 4 degrees. Sit by the radiator and see if it gets hot (be careful steam may come out of that vent hole) also listen to see if you can hear any water or breathing sounds from that open vent taping. Have someone standing by the thermostat to shut it down if steam starts shooting out of the hole.

Go over all the mains and radiator piping to make sure it all has some slope back to the boiler, watch out for any dips that might trap water. A pool of standing water will collapse the steam so it won't get any further down the pipe.

Bob

RacerX00

Fred said:

I can tell you that single Gorton #1 On the return pipe is no way near enough to properly vent that main. Measure that main, from the boiler to that vent and tell us the length and diameter of that main and we can tell you how much venting you need on there.

Not including the verticle climb from the boiler (perhaps 3-4') it's 25' from the vent to the boiler. The pipe is 2.5".

Fred said:

Also, take that cover off of that bathroom radiator and see if it has proper pitch, back to the supply pipe.

There's a 2º from front to back, cover is painted on super super thick so can't get it off.

Fred said:

Is that actually a riser, in your picture or does it just feed a radiator?

There's no radiator above that pipe, just a wall and my stepfather told me he believes there has to be a separate riser for the bathroom and landing radiators because they're too far from the bedroom one. This is my best guess but am I 100% certain? I edit videos for a living, it's why I'm here

BobC said:

When you have the time remove the vent from that bath radiator (when it is cool and the boiler isn't running) and turn up the thermostat by 3 or 4 degrees. Sit by the radiator and see if it gets hot (be careful steam may come out of that vent hole) also listen to see if you can hear any water or breathing sounds from that open vent taping. Have someone standing by the thermostat to shut it down if steam starts shooting out of the hole.

I did this last night, I hear it venting the cold air but it never gets hot. Before all the alterations yesterday it used to get hot on the right side. No more.

Jamie Hall said:

And, like @KC_Jones , I'm quite content with my perfectly silent (well, not quite; I can hear the boiler fire up when I'm right over it) highly efficient (86%) steam system, which is 80 plus years old and going strong. The hot water heat in one of the other places which I care for is young (20) and well installed and cared for -- and endless work. Just the way of it. That other does pay me well for the trouble, though, come to think of it...

To be honest, the system in this house is incredibly silent, there's like a single pipe that makes one slight bang close to the boiler but it's hardly noticeable especially compared to where I grew up. What do I do here though? I got a guy who is looking to give me like 20-30k in labor and materials that will ultimately bring down my energy bills. It's not like he can just give me 20-30k outright instead so what do I do here?

LionA29

Call up @Danny Scully !!!
He will go over it and let you know what's going on.

KC_Jones

I won't tell people what to do, but I will point out items that people don't always think about. Here are a few questions for you with comment about why I am asking.
1. What type of radiation is he planning on installing? I ask because your existing may or may not be up to the task since hot water operates at a lower output. You may need to add or entirely change the radiation. Radiation can get costly very quickly depending on what you choose.
2. Has a room by room heatloss calculation been run on the house (Manual J)? This ties in with question 1 as you need to verify each room has appropriate radiation for the changes. If it doesn't you may have to add or change radiation. I am guessing you will have to since this is a one pipe system and doesn't lend itself to conversion. With built in rads like you have what will you do with the hole left in that wall?
3. If everything is being ripped out and put in new, who is paying for all the remodeling to fix the holes and such left by the removal of the steam heat? For me this is a big one that people don't think about. For your "savings" on energy to make sense you have to account for all that cost as well. Remmber you may be getting free labor, but you still have to pay for materials.
4. Are you sticking with oil or converting to gas? This can dictate how much savings you might actually see. Oil only gets so efficient and some of the oil fired steamers are just as efficient as a hot water boiler.
5. If you are converting to gas what type of boiler will be installed? Again this ties in with efficiency. Are you going cast iron or modcon? Cast iron might see slight gains in efficiency a modcon certainly would, but again as said above you have to evaluate radiation. To keep a modcon in the condensing range you essentially need excess radiation to keep it operating at lower temps.

The debate about conversions can get heated around here, but most will agree that converting a one pipe steam system to hot water almost never makes any sense financially or otherwise. Especially if the system is in decent shape as it sounds like yours is.

Fred

That main should have a Gorton #2 vent on it. That will help steam flow a lot. Also, the radiator with the cover on it, pitch should be from side to side, not front to back. It should Pitch towards the supply pipe. You may have to cut through the paint to get the cover off and make the adjustment.

ChrisJ

Fix the steam system and use the guy's labor insulating your walls, attic etc and tightening the envelope. That's where the energy savings is.

While a properly working hot water system can squeak out a little more efficiency than a proper working steam system the gains can't come close to what good insulation and windows can do.

I've got plenty of free labor and this winter into spring I'm installing central air in my house. The absolutely silent and perfectly balanced steam system stays.