Steam Radiators all spraying water up to 6 ft - loud humming noise when system comes on & shakes hse

ShanL

: Hello, I have a steam boiler system that suddenly one winter night burst slightly on our second story and leaked some water down the pipe. We had a professional come to look at it. He decided to disassemble the 'kettle' part for maintenance and could not get it back together. We of course had to pay for the new part. He was also asked to look at all the radiators as they all seemed to spray water and get the floors wet. He replaced all the little vents but this did not alleviate the issue. I have since learned that we need to slightly tilt the radiators toward the inlet valves. However we noticed right after he 'fixed' our system that when it comes on (and during on and off) the system makes a VERY loud humming noise that you can hear from the top floor of the house. A friend of mine said it sounded like the boiler is 'calling' for water. The professionals came back to listen to it but couldn't figure it out so I am left to curse them every their name each time I heat my house. From my little bit of research it sounds like the pressure is maybe too high? The glass gauge is now also leaking quite a bit and I don't know why. I am afraid to call them back since we paid a large sum in excess of $3,000 already and they seem to have ruined my system. Any suggestions?

Fred

Please don't run that boiler that way. It could be very dangerous, until the problem is understood. Post some pictures of the boiler and the piping around it as well as the auto water feeder. If it is spraying water out of the radiators that high, it sounds like it may be over filled with water. The water level in the sight glass, on the boiler should be 1/2 to 2/3's full. Post a picture of that sight glass, as well. There should be a Pressuretrol mounted on the front or side of the boiler (gray box mounted on a pigtail, (looped pipe)) the scale on the front (Cut-in) should be set to .5 PSI, at the bottom of the scale. There is a white wheel under the cover that should be turned to "1". If your Pressuretrol has a clear plastic front on it, the Main scale should be set at 1.5 PSI and the Differential scale should be set at "1". Good pictures will help a lot. Where are you located? There are many great steam Pros on this site and we can recommend one, in your area or you can check the "Find a Contractor" tab on this site. I would not let the company that did this back into my house, if it were me. Clearly they don't know steam!

ShanL

ShanL

ShanL

ShanL

neilc

pressure on the gage is much too high, should be 2 or less,
another pic of the pressuretrol (grey box) to the right, and anything to the right of that, for their settings,
pressure could also be a clogged pigtail below that tee also, pics first.
also, better picture of the piping above the boiler,
top of the boiler case to the ceiling,

Jamie Hall

Please please tell me that that pressure gauge does NOT read 0 when the boiler is off...

If it does, the boiler pressure is sky high. This could cause much of your problem, right there. Not to mention having trashed all your vents and whatever traps may be on the system.

ShanL

I drained a large pail off but I'm not sure how much the system really holds. How do I know when to stop? It is -23 here in Manitoba so I need my heat on. We have had to run it like this for about 3 years now. The professional also told us to drain a large 6 gallon pail off everyday. The previous owner had said to drain it once a year. The gauge had less than 1/3 water in it at the time I took this pic but it is leaking. Do you have to shut the gas off and drain it to replace that piece?

neilc

you have to control the pressure we are seeing

neilc

that grey box should have settings, an adjustable scale, on it,
what are they?

adambnyc

You should not have to drain the boiler daily, weekly or monthly. Maybe once a year for maintenance before the start of the season. Your pressure is way too high at 10 PSI. Should be 1. I'm thinking the pigtail to your pressuretrol is clogged so it's not able to detect the system pressure and shut down the boiler. If the system ran fine the past 3 years and nothing changed on the boiler itself, then that has to be it.

The pigtail is supposed to be cleaned out at the start of the heating season also.

Fred

@adambnyc , if I'm reading her post correctly, it hasn't been running fine for the last 3 years. It has been running "like this" for the last 3 years.

Fred

@ShanL , Does the pressure dial drop to zero when the boiler is not running or is the dial stuck on "10"? Also, keep the water level, in the boiler at half full. We need to see the settings on the Pressuretrol (gray box next to the pressure gauge)

ShanL

The water in the gauge has risen to just past half and PSI is currently 5 now. Is that not a big flux within hours? It has always from the day we moved in sprayed or leaked at least a cup of water from each rad. The one that sprays the most/highest is directly above the rad. He had replaced all the little vents with little or no improvement only cost. It never had made the noise before they 'fixed' it either. The pipes are vibrating so badly off and on but he had replaced the old pipes with copper ones and that is one of the only difference I could see. I do suspect the water pressure in our home is too high as well but have no idea how to test that or if it would have any effect.

MilanD

It's possible several things are off. To quickly determine what's wrong, shut off the system. Turn off power to it as well on the breaker. When the pressure drops to 0, disconnect and clean pig tail pipe. It's the pipe to which all your gauges are sitting: pressure gauge, gray box with a psi marking which control the pressure is called pressuretrol. There should be 2 of them as one is for high limit and other is op pressure. Pigtail pipe looks like half of the "&" sign and comes straight out of the boiler.

Be careful when disconnecting everything so nothing breaks or you don't break any brass. Pigtail can sometimes be brass. Take your time, apply pressure to wrenches gradually. You may have to disconnect wires from the pressuretrol to be able to rotate pipes and fittings on the pressuretrol.

To cleaned it off, run under water, use a wire or wire hanger and make sure pigtail pipe is clear/clean inside, the best you can. Do it on all pipes coming off the pigtail pipe: ones connecting the pressure gauge and pressuretrols.

Use pipe dope or teflon tape to wrap all threads before reconnecting and be careful not to cross threads. Reconnect everything back to how it was. Take pictures before you do it so you can compare when reassembling.

Now, check pressure settings on the pressuretrol. These old ones are notoriously inaccurate plus, it sounds like noone set this correctly. You want to get it as low as possible, and have your operating pressure not above 1 or 1.5 psi. Depending on your pressuretrol your may have a gauge that's subtractive or additive. This means the difference in setting it to what pressure it shuts off the burners. If it's additive, set pressure to 0.5 (lowest) on the oitside screw, and sett the inside dial to 1. If it's subtractive, set pressure to 1.5 and inside dial to 1. On the second pressuretrol, set it to +1 from the first one.

It is possible also that your main vents are clogged. Those are vents at the end of your pipes in the basement after the last pipe riser to the radiator. It will look something like a larger version of the vent on your radiator. Your "experts" may have been over the years cranking up the pressure when heat couldn't get to your rads. If those vents don't work, your system will not heat properly. If those are clogged, and if you have no way of getting new ones quickly, you may try soaking them in vinegar or clr or some other lime/scale cleaner. Google on how to clean them. May be able to boil them in vinegar/water solution. Someone else can chime on that.

Finally, remove all your rad vents and shake any water out of them. Blow through them and turn them upside down while doing it. If they close, they may be ok To put back in for now. Again, teflon the threads 3 times and carefully thread back into the radiator making sure not to cross threads. Any one that is plugged when you blow through or doesn't close will have to be replaced. For ones that are plugged, you won't get any heat in that rad and never operate radiator without it. Ones that are always open will spit water and steam. For now put a rag over and replace asap.

As to the sight glass, leave this for the end. For now make sure water is about 1/3 or 1/2 way there. Turn back the power, the service switch and make sure thermostat is on and calling for heat. Let the boiler fire up.

As the system heats, watch the gauge. It should stay at 0 most of the time. Steam will start up and you should get the heat coming. If it's not, vents and main vents may be the issue, and there are no ways around it without replacing them.

Finally, if that sight glass is still leaking at this low pressure, you may attempt to slowly tighten the nut around it. There is a rubber gasket inside, and tightening the nut will exert pressure on it and through it on the glass gauge and the brass housing. Too tight and you may crack the glass. If you are not comfortable doing it, leave it dripping. It won't matter short term but it will have to be addressed at some point.

I hope this helps get you going. Good luck!!!

MilanD

One last thought: as soon as your last rad farthest from the boiler is hot, look at the pressure on the gauge. That is pressure you need. This assumes your main vents operate as they should. Also, I'm assuming your gauge is also working accurately. At no point should your system be above 1.5 psi, 2 max.

neilc

ShanL said:

let's start by dialing the scale on the left down,
looks like your set at 4 psi, make that 1, (2 tops)

and post another pic of that same device, but a little wider angle so we see the whole case, and even what's around it,

ShanL

It is a gas heated boiler. Do you turn off the gas and then the electrical power or vice versa?

Jamie Hall

If I am reading the picture of the pressuretrol correctly, it is set too high -- it looks like the main scale is set at 4. Try just changing that main scale setting to 2 and set the differential scale to 1. See if that helps.

If you could take a slightly larger view of the pressuretrol, I may be able to suggest a better setting; I can't quite tell from the picture whether that particular one is subtractive or additive.

In either case, at the present settings you are probably looking at all new vents -- main and radiators -- as the pressure it is set at (never mind what the gauge reads!) they may have been damaged beyond repair.

neilc

to do anything we've mentioned so far you will not need to turn off the gas,
the electric being off would disable gas

MilanD

That pressuretrol may also be shot or on a clogged pipe. If it's working, and pipe is clean, and there is a way to open it up, there might be a way to bend the lever inside that connects to the pressure switch and bend it towards the little pressure piston that's at the bottom of the lever. This will help engage the switch and turn off the boiler at the lower pressure.

When you are at 5 psi, are all your rads hot? You need to get the pressure as low as possible while all rads are hot. This means venting needs to be good on your mains.

MilanD

Pressuretrol looks like it's point plus differential so you have it set to turn off at 5 psi, and back on at 4. Too high still. Get it down to 1 on both sides. If this doesn't shut off the boiler at 2, pressuretrol is not working as it should. You may attempt the above to get it working as close to 2 psi setting. It will be trial and error until you can replace it. Make sure pipe going to it is not clogged.

MilanD

If servicing the above, you don't have to shut off gas. Just electric.

neilc

and just for fun,
let's see one wide angle picture of the boiler, floor to ceiling

MilanD

First get the pressuretrol to 1 on both sides. Then see what happens.

(Sorry, looks like more answers get in before I'm done typing. Glad to see many people trying to help!)

Kahooli

If you've spent $3000 with this serviceman and they haven't actually at least identified root cause, they should be fired and you reimbursed.

MilanD

I'm about to call it a night but wanted to make sure you are up and running and not freezing at -23! Have you got the thing going and pressure under control? This should aleviate most your problems.

And yes, call to service company is in order and a reimbursement of every last penny. If they don't play nice, report them to whatever your version of Attorney General's office is. States side, no company likes dealing with them.

Jamie Hall

Hey guys -- were we all typing at once? At least we all agree...

ShanL

ShanL

EzzyT

The near boiler piping is clearly one of the major issues and most likely the cause of all the other problems you have going on

ShanL

Fred

Is there a water shut-off valve to that water feeder mounted on that McDonnell Miller Low water cut-off ? If so, shut it off and run the boiler without the auto fill working for a day or two and see if that resolves your problem. Keep an eye on the water sight glass to make sure the water level stays at about the middle of the glass when the boiler is not running. Add water manually if you need additional water.Those auto water units have a solenoid valve in them that can fail and let water leak into the boiler constantly, causing the boiler to over-fill and may be why you have to drain gallons of water every day.
Make sure you lower the Pressuretrol like others have already said. If that resolves your problem, you will need to have someone repair or install a new auto water feeder.

ShanL

I think it has been too long to call them on that. They wanted me to post video of the noise but I kept putting it off. I turned down the left hand side. Looks like it is sitting at 5 when the heat is not going and 10 when has been. We will see if I'm frozen solid in the morning or not.

MilanD

Well, that near boiler piping it is what it is. Try with lowering the pressure and see how it goes. That should stop condensate coming out of vents if you can get steam to rads at the lower pressure. If thar works, then it works. Plus what @Fred said.

When things subside a bit, and if you still have issues, look at how people here on the wall pipe boilers. Find your boiler installation manual and get someone to pipe it at least per manual, or with what's called a "drop header". At that time you may want to gauge if new boiler should be considered as you'll be already getting a lot of labor to repipe things properly.

Best of luck and stay warm!

ShanL

House is warm. Seems quieter but I haven't been home much at all today since I adjusted the setting on the left. Turned it down slightly more but I haven't turned down the differential side. It seems to be as low as it can go... I did in fact lose the little guy inside the box. Here's the 'just for fun' pic

ShanL

Not sure if this pic is any better than the last grey one. There is no dial underneath that I could see.

Ironman

Set the "Cut In" to .5 and the differential to 1psi.

neilc

there is that second adjustment screw up top, just like the one on the left, but more forward
you really need that left scale dialed down a bit more,
looks like you're still set up around 3, dial that down to 1, or lower, like 1/2 as Bob says.

If you turn your boiler off for about a 1/2 hour,
does the pressure gage ever get back down to 0 ?
we see that it is still up around 5 or 6, too high.

that pigtail could be blocked and need cleaning still.

ShanL

I don't think it ever reaches 0. I have been leary to turn it down so much right off the hop. Rads are not spraying or spitting like they used to but it is still noisy. Especially when it comes on. Thinking perhaps I'd like to try the auto feed situation. It is a big decision in this weather to attempt anything for an amateur. Would really prefer someone who knows what they are doing but my wallet is terrified of that too! If the pressure is too low will it make it through the pigtail pipe if it is clogged?