2 Children Killed In Radiator Mishap In Bronx Apartment

Paul S_3

I went on a service call yesterday in a 20 unit apartment building....i repaired a Webster duel fuel burner...it was a simple fix .... while i was there i noticed the system running at around 10 psi....the superintendent was there the whole time with me....i informed him about the high pressure....he told me its a big building....i didnt get too much into it....if a radiator vent was snapped off at that pressure i would imagine the effects would be very bad....alot ofapartment building i see in Nyc are running at crazy high pressure

KC_Jones

My immediate response would be a quote from Dan's book. The Empire State building runs on 3 psi. Then look him in the face and ask him to explain why he thinks he needs so much pressure.

I don't own my own business and this is probably one reason why.

Canucker

Hatterasguy said:

KC_Jones said:

Mad Dog said:

"...sometimes they just pop off when pressure is too high."

Translation: I have no idea what I am talking about, but I am on the news and will spew some random garbage that the public wants to hear.

Why is this country afraid of honesty? Without being there I think most if not all of us know this was a maintenance issue or a neglect issue. Why is the news or the powers that be afraid to say that? To protect other children we need honesty, blaming the rad is stupid and helps no one.

Here is he exact quote from the article:
too much pressure from the steam can cause the valves to pop off.
“When there is too much pressure, the whole thing blows,” he said.
The amount of pressure that would take with everything installed properly is way beyond the safety limits installed on the boiler. Again don't just say pressure say why there was that much pressure. The landlord is a deadbeat and doesn't take care of the property and it killed 2 children today.

It's tragic and sugar coating it will kill more children in the future.

KC, let me tell you a secret:

If you have inside knowledge of any subject, you will immediately see the gross errors and fallacies presented by the media. The topic does not matter.

I know commercial aircraft and engines a bit. Whenever there is an incident or an accident, the factual information is non-existent but the storytelling by those without a clue is incessant.

Accuracy is of little relevance to any of the media. Time and hyperbole matter. That's it.

I agree with this statement 1000% @Hatterasguy The company I work for ran into a hatchet job by a large newspaper that had an agenda against the conservative government we had at the time. The sad part is a quick search or call to the FDA would have made the story a non issue but that wouldn't have read as well, I guess

KC_Jones

Hat, this isn't a secret to me. I do refuse to stop asking the questions, when I stop asking I have allowed the stupid to fully take over.

People with money will rarely be held accountable. If this situation is due to lack of maintenance on the part of the building owner the owner should be brought up on charges. The owner most likely has money for a good attorney, since they aren't spending it on the property. Nothing will happen and next year another kid will die in another building because people refuse to learn and/or take responsibility.

SlamDunk

"I know commercial aircraft and engines a bit. Whenever there is an incident or an accident, the factual information is non-existent but the storytelling by those without a clue is incessant"

You mean Denzel's movie "Flight" had inaccuracies?!!

Just kidding-old a/c mechanic here

LionA29

In the end, two beautiful children were lost!
We are patent and suppose to protect our children. These parents had their run in with the law, who knows what happen.... they can't be burned or steamed to death without a cry! The father was sleeping it was reported, was he on substance of any kind?? If so, he was the parent & guardian of the children. Lack of supervision! Not forgetting the mother. That's the problem right their.
There are hazards all over when you turn but children always need or have parents to guide and protect!
Tragic!

ChrisJ

LionA29 said:

In the end, two beautiful children were lost!

We are patent and suppose to protect our children. These parents had their run in with the law, who knows what happen.... they can't be burned or steamed to death without a cry! The father was sleeping it was reported, was he on substance of any kind?? If so, he was the parent & guardian of the children. Lack of supervision! Not forgetting the mother. That's the problem right their.

There are hazards all over when you turn but children always need or have parents to guide and protect!

Tragic!

Sounds like we're thinking the same thing.

Fred

As far as the news is concerned, in this case and probably many others, I think it is just ignorance, plain and simple. These news people aren't trained or knowledgeable about most of the things they report on and consequently they interview someone who is suppose to be knowledgeable and assume the info they are getting is correct. For them to do the research needed before any reporting would delay the news story perhaps by days, which is worse that getting it out quickly and letting logical/concerned people know they need to look at their heating systems (or whatever) and have competent technicians do the required maintenance. In this case, the story is that two children were killed by a failed steam system component in a building where the Landlord has been sited for maintenance issues, in the past. Those are the most important facts, I think.

LionA29

Good to know @ChrisJ , thanks

SlamDunk

@ChrisJ & @LionA29- That's pretty harsh and judgmental.

It is possible the kids didn't cry because they suffocated first. It is possible that if they did cry, they just weren't heard through a closed door and it is also possible that even though the news says father was unemployed, he could have had an off the books night job and sleeps soundly.

By all witness accounts, they were a poor and loving family doing the best they can.

LionA29

@SlamDunk
The truth hurts when it is said.... but we don't know as yet.But so far, some sort of negligence.

"The couple was the subject of a total of six child welfare cases in New York State and Maine. The most recent case was in January 2016 in New York State.
Peter Ambrose has two prior arrests -- possession of a hypodermic needle in July 2015 and fare beating in 2012."

Sailah

KC_Jones said:

My immediate response would be a quote from Dan's book. The Empire State building runs on 3 psi. Then look him in the face and ask him to explain why he thinks he needs so much pressure.

I don't own my own business and this is probably one reason why.

Last year I visited the ESB and walked the steam system with Johnson Controls. I remember the 3PSI thing from Dan so I asked him.

He said no, they ran staged pressures, forgetting the details but it was 75>50>25>10 or something close to that. But it wasn't 3 PSIG. I think I told Dan this last year, maybe it was something they used to do not sure.

Sailah

In the interest of science, I closed the door to my steam lab, fitted a 1/8" nozzle to our steam system and ran it wide open at 5 PSIG for 3 minutes. My lab is certainly larger than a childs bedroom in NYC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-ffmWA1fH0&feature=em-upload_owner

After I finished the video I walked out into the hallway and it was def cooler and the air was easier to breathe. I just couldn't leave it on for 20 minutes and wreck the sheetrock.

ChrisJ

SlamDunk said:

@ChrisJ & @LionA29- That's pretty harsh and judgmental.

It is possible the kids didn't cry because they suffocated first. It is possible that if they did cry, they just weren't heard through a closed door and it is also possible that even though the news says father was unemployed, he could have had an off the books night job and sleeps soundly.

By all witness accounts, they were a poor and loving family doing the best they can.

Many things are possible. I obviously have no way of knowing what actually took place.

I formed an opinion based on the evidence provided on what I believe was plausible. Could I be wrong? ABSOLUTELY! I do not feel it was judgmental in any shape or form.

I do not believe a radiator exploded.

I do not believe a vent blew off the side of it due to excess pressure. If it did, I highly doubt that could happen in a home where I'm sleeping without me knowing.

I also do not believe an 1/8" hole could fill a typical size bedroom with steam fast enough to suffocate two children before they could scream. I don't have any way to tell if this is possible or not, it just doesn't seem realistic.



I expect we'll likely hear something down the road of what actually took place.


Our world lost two children for something that could have, and should have been prevented.

ChrisJ

Sailah said:

In the interest of science, I closed the door to my steam lab, fitted a 1/8" nozzle to our steam system and ran it wide open at 5 PSIG for 3 minutes. My lab is certainly larger than a childs bedroom in NYC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-ffmWA1fH0&feature=em-upload_owner

After I finished the video I walked out into the hallway and it was def cooler and the air was easier to breathe. I just couldn't leave it on for 20 minutes and wreck the sheetrock.

@Sailah

What are your thoughts on the news report?

Sailah

@ChrisJ

I think it's terrible. I'm a father of 2 young children, 5 & 8. I can't imagine the feeling as a parent to have to carry your 2 kids outside. I don't fear much in this world but that is right up at number 1 on my list of things I never want to have to face.

I don't have an opinion as to what happened as I've only read about it here.

Having stood in the room for 3 minutes I can tell you it was a very gradual rise in temperature. The humidity increasing was the most noticeable. No worse than a sauna or standing in a hot shower. I put my hand in the steam 5' away and it wasn't even close to hot. I would think as an hour went by and the temp in the room climbed and the humidity went up, it would look a lot different as the steam would tend to remain as steam not instantly collapse in a 70 degree room.

I can't imagine it would have burnt them to death. They would have had to be very very close and in a direct path of the steam to do that in my non sceintific opinion. I find it much more probable that they suffocated. At least that's what it felt like to me.

Sailah

Also I find it probable that the increasing heat would have made them scream but what if they were asleep? Isn't it the same thing as dying from smoke inhalation in a fire? They find people dead in their beds so I assume it's possible for the smoke to kill you even before you could wake up. Certainly a toddler would be more prone to that I would think than an adult.

Hard to tell I've never had it happen. Although I did fall asleep in a sauna once and it's amazing how relaxed you get when you are overheated. Maybe that had something to do with it just being overcome by the time they woke?

Ugh, hard to even think about

FranklinD

My initial thoughts were that they succumbed due to suffocation, especially if they were asleep. Too many unknowns and too many "sources" passing the "facts" along for any of them to be correct by the time they reach me...but that's just my opinion. I pressure test my used radiators (first an air-only test, then with water) to 35psi, and have never had a failure like they're talking about on even the rustiest, most banged-up units I've come across. At most they'll start dripping between a few sections. But I've never had one "pop" or "explode".

DanHolohan

Many New Yorkers control the radiator by turning the vent upside down. Do this a few times and the vent will fall out when there's enough steam pressure.

RomanGK_26986764589

@Sailah Wow, I did not know 5 psi can blow the steam that far. No wonder those poor vents get quickly ruined by the pressure. I used to live in an apartment building with steam. We used to change failed vents quite often in our flat. So I ventured down to the boiler room and voila, the boiler would reach 5 PSI and stay there with modulating burner during the whole cycle. I asked the super to lower it down to 2 psi but he wouldn't budge. He said he doesn't want any complaints from tenants due to lack of heat and he would need an approval from the coop board anyway. He mentioned "he is able to control the overheating via heat timer." Dumb. I'm so glad I have a house now where I can control my own pressure.
May the children rest in peace for they died due to the ignorance and negligence of others, including their parents.

nybigapple

I would guess the children were sleeping, and were taken before they even knew what happened. I'm dealing with an apartment building now that has been neglected for over 2 decades. This was almost certainly caused by lack of maintenance.

It's the norm when you have rent stabilized buildings. Owners want the building to get run down so people will leave. There are people paying hundreds of dollars for apartments that would rent for thousands.

This leads to seriously unsafe conditions. I just posted about a difficult pipe repair on this board where a steam pipe burst. It was likely leaking for years but nobody cared or took the time to notice. They just kept raising the pressure to insure everyone had heat. I mean you would only notice it 4 1/2 months a year when the heat is running.

But it was also slowly wearing away the gas line it was jammed next to. Can you imagine the possible catastrophe if it burst the gas line? There are people who walk around the building smoking. How many people could die?