Weil Mclain EG-40 steam boiler - Need some help

cms829

So I am renting from a family member. We moved in and assumed the "newer" boiler/single pipe system worked fine, and we were told it had. However, the house has been vacant for 3-4 years. In those winters, the heat was only put to 58-60 degrees and left there. It probably never kicked on, as the house is brick and gets a ton of sun during the day and remains around 68 without the heat on when its 35 out.

Anyway, the whole story - Started it up the first time and air vents on the rads were HISSING like crazy and rad's further down the line weren't heating. Changed those gortons with new ones, each the same size as removed. Worked "better", but then the rad furthest down the main threw up water all over the floor through the vent. Thats when I started learning about steam systems. Sight glass water was literally draining during operation and brown crud would flow down through the top. Sometimes the LWCO would step in and shut it down. Water was filthy. It had no skim port installed, so I installed one, skimmed a couple times. Made a wand and drained and flushed a couple times. While I was at it, I found the pigtail completely plugged. Cleaned that up. Water is better, and the rad's stopped hissing like mad and spitting water. No more wet steam.

Then I found out about main vents. Well - There was one. But it was a single old cruddy Dole 1933 that I never heard working. It had definitely failed, so my family member went to the plumbing supply and got me a new #1 Gorton. Maybe it helped a little.


Where we stand today - The main is either 2.5-3" and probably a total of 50-60 feet (I need to measure it later to confirm). I know that the one gorton #1 is not nearly enough to vent that much main. Today I picked up 2 more #1's (the store here doesnt carry the #2's) to add onto an antler that I am going to put together in place of the one #1. So now I will have a total of three #1 gortons venting the main. If thats not enough I can always add another. I dont really have the height to put in a #2 in that location regardless.

There are 5 radiators on the system. The first 3 heat up pretty good. The first one right above the boiler gets really warm. But unless I put the t-stat to like 74 degrees, the last two furthest on the main dont get any heat. When I come downstairs in the morning they are cold.

I also believe that the EG-40 boiler is still short cycling. If the t-stat says 68 and I bump it up to 72...it immediately fires up. But only for around 5-6 minutes and shuts down. Then 10 minutes or so later it fires up, and produces steam for a couple mintutes, and shuts down and repeats. Well before the t-stat is satisfied. Water level is half on the sight glass and doesnt bump around more then an inch anymore since cleaning. Pressuretrol is set around 1 cut in with a 1 differential and I have never seen the gauge move but confirmed it works by blowing into it (it isnt a good gauge however. Its a 0-30 psi) I also tested the pressuretrol and it does cut off the boiler if I trip the micro-switch. Is the cycling normal for this Weil Mclain EG-40 boiler? I cant imagine it is.

Sorry for the long and probably confusing post. I wanted to get it all in there. lol. I know there is a lot going on, but I want to possibly confirm/fix the cycling issue (if it is an issue) first and then the balance issue with the rad vents, after putting these 2 more vents on the main.

Thanks for any tips/insight anyone cares to give!!

ChrisJ

Let's see some pictures of the boiler, it's piping and the system.

Are all of the radiators fully hot and the vents on those radiators hot as well by the time the boiler starts cycling?

hboogz

Do you only have one main? The pro's here have a measurement for what size a pipe is by measuring the Outside Diameter, I forgot and don't have it written down. But what i do know is even for a 2" main you would want the equivalent of a gorton #2 for every 20 ft. While I haven't used them yet (will soon), many reputable people here talk up the BigMouth vents that can be found on amazon right now. 1 bigmouth apparently can vent as much as 2 gorton #2's and has a footprint similar to a gorton #1.

From what I know, air and the lack of venting causes short cycling on one-pipe steam systems. I would purchase those two big mouths, replace the 1's you installed with two drop your cut in to .5 and cutout to 1.

5 radiators for a EG 40 seems extremely small. in other words, it sounds like the eg 40 could be oversized. And, i could be wrong, when youre that oversized and have the mains insulated, it can also cause short cycling.

which gortons do you have on the rads ?

Harry

Jamie Hall

First thought -- check that thermostat. What kind is it? If it is the variety on which you can set the cycles per hour, make sure it is set to 1 cycle per hour. If it is the sort which talks about system type, make sure it is set to steam.

Second thought. The additional venting should help a lot.

The odds are that the boiler is piped poorly, but that can wait.

cms829

I will grab a picture later tonight.

No - it will do this cycling thing from a cold start. Or if its hot. Doesn't seem to matter.

There is in fact only one main. I will confirm the diameter and lengths when I get home but I believe they are in fact 3". All of the main is insulated except a 12 foot run in the main room of the basement. Im going to throw those gortons on tonight and see if it helps. I have family over for the holidays starting tomorrow, so hoping to improve the issue so the second bedroom is a tad warmer. Of course the one rad that isn't heating is in the second bedroom. I will look into those bigmouths if these dont do the trick.

1st rad has a 5 gorton.
2nd rad has a #4 and is the room the t-stat is in
3rd rad is pretty large and has a 5 or 6 cant remember
4th is a c
5th is a d

I imagine this is adding to the problems.

The thermostat is a normal round honeywell one with the mercury switch. The anticipator is set to .6 i think.

ChrisJ

cms829 said:

I will grab a picture later tonight.

No - it will do this cycling thing from a cold start. Or if its hot. Doesn't seem to matter.

There is in fact only one main. I will confirm the diameter and lengths when I get home but I believe they are in fact 3". All of the main is insulated except a 12 foot run in the main room of the basement. Im going to throw those gortons on tonight and see if it helps. I have family over for the holidays starting tomorrow, so hoping to improve the issue so the second bedroom is a tad warmer. Of course the one rad that isn't heating is in the second bedroom. I will look into those bigmouths if these dont do the trick.

1st rad has a 5 gorton.
2nd rad has a #4 and is the room the t-stat is in
3rd rad is pretty large and has a 5 or 6 cant remember
4th is a c
5th is a d

I imagine this is adding to the problems.

The thermostat is a normal round honeywell one with the mercury switch. The anticipator is set to .6 i think.

Move the anticipator all the way over to 1.2 for now, I think that's the max?

See if your cycling magically goes away.

Once we figure that out, we can continue, including possibly fine tuning the anticipator.

cms829

Alright - I will give that a shot when I get home and report back.

cms829

So i added the 2 gorton #1's on an antler, and changed a couple rad vents to slow the venting down on the first 3 radiators off the main.

I also changed the heat anticipator from .6 to 1.2 as suggested by the users manual for "steam".

I am not certain if it stopped the short cycling. I think it did though. Seemed to of ran longer until the temp was up to the T-stat temp.

Seems like it made a difference but still not quite there yet on the last two radiators. I shut the door to the second bedroom last night before bed, and with the heat set to 70. This morning the main rooms were 70-71, but the second bedroom was around 65 with the door closed. The radiator was warm...but not HOT. This is the 4th radiator on the line. The 5th and last radiator off the main was also warm. A possible big reason for this is that it is over the garage. However last night I left the door to the garage open so the basement heat would get in there. The ceiling is also insulated.

I have a #4 on the first rad off the main, and a #4 on the second one which is in the room with the T-stat. The third radiator is rather large and I threw a #5 on it. On the 4th, I started off with a C to try and vent it quicker since it is branched off the main by probably 6 feet or so. I then second guessed that and changed it to a 6, which is what was on it overnight. The last and final radiator I have a C on.

After work I am thinking of changing the large third radiator off the line from a 5 to a 4, as even with the 5, it got hotter faster then the fourth and fifth radiators. My question is (and I dont know if there is an obvious answer) is what should I put on that 4th radiator in the second bedroom to try and heat it up faster and hotter?

PS - The main measures around 8" diameter. which when divided by PI gives me 2.5" So as long as my logic is correct - the steam main is 2.5"

Heres some pics. Yes, I know copper isnt good. But this was installed long before we moved in. The rest of the pipe is black iron.


Here is the antler i added last night. Previously coming out of that T was just a Dole vent which I replaced with a single Gorton #1. Last night I added the antler and two more Gorton #1's

ChrisJ

What about the cycling?
Did it improve?

cms829

It did in fact seem to improve, yes. It seems like it kicked on and off a bit until the house was up to temp. Def seemed to stay on longer then it was.

cms829

Anyone have any insight on helping me get that 4th radiator on the line warmer? I used my infrared thermometer and measured around 140 degrees. Seems like the first 3 rads are def getting hotter. Like 200 degrees or so.

Got another #4 vent to put on the largest radiator 3rd on the line. Right now have a 5 on it and it heats across. Thinking if I downsize the vent and slow that down, along with having #4's on the first two rad's that it'll help the last two rad's on the line get hotter faster.

Next question- the rad in the second bedroom is relatively small. Probably only 24" long x 30 inches high (guesstimate). Should I stick with a 6 on it or go up to a C? Can the larger vent negatively affect it?

Also grabbed some insulation to insulate that 12 foot run on the main that isnt insulated. Its plenty hot downstairs, and hoping this helps get more steam to those last radiators.

ChrisJ

cms829 said:

Anyone have any insight on helping me get that 4th radiator on the line warmer? I used my infrared thermometer and measured around 140 degrees. Seems like the first 3 rads are def getting hotter. Like 200 degrees or so.

Got another #4 vent to put on the largest radiator 3rd on the line. Right now have a 5 on it and it heats across. Thinking if I downsize the vent and slow that down, along with having #4's on the first two rad's that it'll help the last two rad's on the line get hotter faster.

Next question- the rad in the second bedroom is relatively small. Probably only 24" long x 30 inches high (guesstimate). Should I stick with a 6 on it or go up to a C? Can the larger vent negatively affect it?

Also grabbed some insulation to insulate that 12 foot run on the main that isnt insulated. Its plenty hot downstairs, and hoping this helps get more steam to those last radiators.

This completely depends on why your boiler is cycling.
If it's because of pressure, downsizing the vents on other radiators does not make sense.

You need to also keep an eye on what's getting hot. The radiator you say isn't heating much, is the vent getting hot? If so, steam could be taking a short cut across the bottom and shutting the vent. If that's happening you need a slower vent.

If the system is running at a reasonable pressure, you can also add more vents to the troubled radiator, even vent the pipe to it.

cms829

The rad in question - The vent does get hot and the bottom of the Rad gets hot a lot faster than across the top.

I haven't seen the system go above 1 PSI, but I will double check that tonight. The gauge barely moves. I'll double check when I get home and report back.

I laugh - cause my family members who own the house seem to think its running just fine and that its as simple as a tea pot. Yea, ok. Thanks for the help Chris.

ChrisJ

cms829 said:

The rad in question - The vent does get hot and the bottom of the Rad gets hot a lot faster than across the top.

I haven't seen the system go above 1 PSI, but I will double check that tonight. The gauge barely moves. I'll double check when I get home and report back.

I laugh - cause my family members who own the house seem to think its running just fine and that its as simple as a tea pot. Yea, ok. Thanks for the help Chris.

I'd slow the vent down and see what happens.
I saw the same thing happen when messing around and venting too fast caused exactly what you're seeing.

Use the next size smaller vent and observe. If it still does it go even smaller. My expectations would be for the steam to start going across the top more with a slower vent and for it to take longer to get to the vent.

You don't want the vent getting hot until a good 60-70% of the radiator is steam hot.

MilanD

All else being as it is, you can never vent the main fast enough. Check how quickly the steam gets there without a vent. Take the main vent off and wait. Then, try to match that with the appropriate vent in place. Of course, be careful not to burn yourself when doing this.

2. Steam will travel the path of least resistance. Make rads closer to the boiler vent slower, make rads farther vent faster. This will help push steam to rads farther away.

3. You can invest in 2 or 3 thermostatic vents on the rads closest to the boiler. Supplyhouse.com carries them. I did this on a building I manage, (4 rads of 14 on that zone, 3 zones in total), while doing the above steps 1. and 2. It did wonders on rads farthest from the boiler that would only get tepid at best even when the pressure was at 1.5 psi, which we know is too much to begin with. I now heat 10k sq ft bldng and 3 zones, with 6 oz of pressure. It's doable. How does that song go..."It's all about that air, 'bout that air, no pressure!" (Sorry, had to do it!)

4. Pressuretroll/3 psi gauge are a must. Will help tune the system and tell you if you have a problem.

5. Mercury round thermostat can go bad after 30+ years. I've had more misbehaving from furnaces, boilers and zone actuators because of these old thermostats than any other issues. Invest in a good thermostat.

6. Which brings me to Tekmar 279. Get a tech to install it. It's not cheap. If your boiler is oversized, and if it's 5 rads on EG-40, unless the rads are massive in size, it sounds like you are, short of replacing the boiler (mucho dinero), Tekmar 279 is your next best option (not as mucho dinero).

Nice thing about all this is, once it's done right, you'll never have to mess with it again. Just service regularly and replace vents as they fail. Next time the boiler is up for replacing, calculate the EDR (and perhaps heat loss, but sounds like you are fine there if house warms up to 68 in winter from solar gain alone), so you can install the correct BTU rated boiler for the EDR.

Good luck!

ChrisJ

With all due respect, I could never recommend a Tekmar 279 to be installed in a residential application.

hboogz

Curious to see if you remove the vent all together from that trouble rad and see how fast it heats or if it heats as much as it should. It should turn the room into a sauna, but since we are testing, perhaps worth a shot?

I love the vent-rite adjustable vents and bringing them down to a setting of 1 has done a wonderful job for me on a big rad that's close to the boiler.

For your house to have one main would meain the boiler is installed on the very far end and the main shoots all the way across ?

ChrisJ

Guys,
The radiator is behaving like it's being vented too fast.

The solution is most likely a slower vent on the radiator and if need be, a decent sized vent on the pipe.

hboogz

I was going on the impression the trouble rad doesn't get hot enough. I could be mistaken, but isn't overheating one behavior that's consistent with a rad being vented too fast ?

ChrisJ

hboogz said:

I was going on the impression the trouble rad doesn't get hot enough. I could be mistaken, but isn't overheating one behavior that's consistent with a rad being vented too fast ?

Usually yes.
However in this case the OP stated the vent does get burning hot even though the radiator isn't. It's been my experience this means the steam is shooting across the bottom of the radiator and then right up into the vent and shutting it. This leaves most of the radiator starving for steam.

Best I can tell, this is from a combination of the pressure the system is running at and the design and size of radiator. Generally, backing off the venting some will cause the steam to fill the radiator mostly before ever reaching the vent.

Fred

As Chris says, when a radiator heats across the bottom , it means the vent is too large and the steam races across the bottom of the radiator to that vent, rather than across each section of the radiator, with a slower vent. No, a hot radiator, in and of itself is not an indication of a radiator venting too fast. It's all relative to trying to get all radiators to heat at about the same time. A hot radiator, by itself , is just that, a hot radiator.
@cms829 , in addition to slowing that radiator venting a bit, how long is that 2.5" main? Three Gorton 1's still vent less than one Gorton #2. It it very possible you are not pushing air out of the main as quickly as you could. You might consider A Barnes and Jones BigMouth vent. It is sold on Amazon, is about the same size as a Gorton #1 and venting is about equal to two Gorton #2's. Given those rads are at the end of the main, main venting remains suspect but the rad getting hot across the bottom still is a symptom of a rad that vents too fast.

hboogz

Great info @ChrisJ and @Fred thank you for the insight.

Harry.

RomanGK_26986764589

@ChrisJ I was actually wondering why is it not recommended to install Tekmar or Heat timer on small residential steam boilers?

ChrisJ

RomanGK_26986764589 said:

@ChrisJ I was actually wondering why is it not recommended to install Tekmar or Heat timer on small residential steam boilers?

I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a system that is designed to run primarily on timing rather than indoor temperature. The Ecosteam I use controls based on outdoor temperature but it also uses indoor temperature and was no where near the cost. Sadly, Mark wasn't able to continue making them.

@Hatterasguy knows more about the Tekmar and Heattimer than I do, but I don't think it's intended to be used in that way (in a house).

Here's the Tekmark so you can see the price of the hardware alone.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Tekmar-279-Steam-Control-One-Stage-7959000-p?gclid=CjwKEAiAmdXBBRD0hZCVkYHTl20SJACWsZj90toBYGJ35UthHsNgbUzzOWAiAFFVFTWdDygSaZI4IRoCdZbw_wcB

RomanGK_26986764589

@ChrisJ Wow. They're indeed expencive. I visited eco steam web site, I wonder why was it discontinued? Seems like a really useful piece of equipment in taming steam.

Jamie Hall

May I add one comment to "taming steam"? The fanciest controllers in the world won't do much good if the system isn't piped and vented properly to begin with. And if it is, you really have to start thinking about cost/benefit ratios.

Steamhead

The main is not vented enough. You should have three Gorton #2 vents on there. They're available online at places like State Supply or PEX Supply. Once you get the main vented properly, that last radiator should get steam as fast as the others.