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Drop headers

Tinman
Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
I've been playing around with drawing some different, steam near boiler piping schematics. Putting pencil to paper is a good learning tool for me. I've yet to draw one with a drop header. It's seems to be the preferred method here? What are the reasons for that?
Steve Minnich
«1

Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583
    Easy of installation, you have more swivel points which makes it a lot easier to line things up.


    Risers feeding into top of header in theory works better for drying steam than feeding into the side.

    It looks cool.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    HatterasguyCharlie from wmass
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    Is it common to pre-pipe the drop header before you even get to the job? I'm thinking it would be a big time saver?
    Steve Minnich
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    It looks cool?
    Steve Minnich
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    edited August 2016
    It gives you a way to create sufficient "A" dimension in limited overhead space, and (on counterflow systems especially) when the system piping comes in below the top of a new boiler.
    ChrisJHap_HazzardCharlie from wmass
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,294
    If I have the time to prepipe the header at the shop then I will. Usaully im piping the header on the vise while my apprentice is tearing down the old boiler and by the time the old boiler is torn down and moved out of the way I have the header all ready for the new boiler.
    E-Travis Mechanical LLC
    Etravismechanical@gmail.com
    201-887-8856
    TinmanPaul S_3
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    Man I need to come hold a pipe wrench for some of you guys one day. Seeing all these great piping jobs on the board recently makes me appreciate all the time and foresight it takes to do a job well.

    I bring donuts and buy lunch!
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
    delta T
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    @SWEI - I suspected it had to do with limited ceiling height but wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying.

    @ChrisJ - I agree. It does look cool
    Steve Minnich
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583

    @SWEI - I suspected it had to do with limited ceiling height but wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying.

    @ChrisJ - I agree. It does look cool

    That was one I forgot about, and was one of the reasons I did it. The header can be down by the top of the boiler and your risers can still come up a good 30"+
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    And so the longer the risers, the better?
    Steve Minnich
    ChrisJCharlie from wmass
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,294
    Yes
    E-Travis Mechanical LLC
    Etravismechanical@gmail.com
    201-887-8856
    SWEIPaul S_3Tinman
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    I knew I had seen photos of a prefab drop header but I couldn't remember exactly where. Nice work!
  • delta T
    delta T Member Posts: 884
    Dry steam is happy steam!
  • New England SteamWorks
    New England SteamWorks Member Posts: 1,505
    edited September 2016

    Is it common to pre-pipe the drop header before you even get to the job? I'm thinking it would be a big time saver?

    We do it in the winter to cut down on heat down-time. Hard to get anything done on day one when the disposal guys are there. Usually you get sucked into their activity. So we prefer to quietly build the header at the shop while they dispose, then bring it over when they are gone in the afternoon.

    Summers, I prefer to have the disposal guys come a day early, then we go and build the header on site.
    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
    Tinman
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583

    And so the longer the risers, the better?

    To an extent.
    The longer they are, the further the water has to jump out of the boiler to make it into the header, which, will then send it to the equalizer, but the less the better.

    Two risers means even less water getting out, and larger risers means even less.

    I don't know what the highest worth going is, but I'd say 25-30" above the top of the boiler is a nice height.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited August 2016
    I think the less water carried by the steam into the header, the better (makes for dryer steam) Then any residual water that falls out of the steam, while in the header will flow to the equalizer.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583
    Fred said:

    I think the less water carried by the steam into the header, the better (makes for dryer steam) Then any residual water that falls out of the steam, while in the header will flow to the equalizer.

    True,
    But do you think anyone should run risers from the basement up into the attic, and then back down into a drop header? :)

    Trying to give the OP an idea of what to work with.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    ChrisJ said:

    Fred said:

    I think the less water carried by the steam into the header, the better (makes for dryer steam) Then any residual water that falls out of the steam, while in the header will flow to the equalizer.

    True,
    But do you think anyone should run risers from the basement up into the attic, and then back down into a drop header? :)

    Trying to give the OP an idea of what to work with.
    Hummm, Something to think about. Tuesday night pondering
    :)
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    I don't think the OP would ever think that.
    Steve Minnich
    ChrisJ
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
    ChrisJ said:

    Fred said:

    I think the less water carried by the steam into the header, the better (makes for dryer steam) Then any residual water that falls out of the steam, while in the header will flow to the equalizer.

    True,
    But do you think anyone should run risers from the basement up into the attic, and then back down into a drop header? :)

    Trying to give the OP an idea of what to work with.
    I can't remember where I heard it, but I remember someone telling me that water droplets can't go higher than 36". That's not always feasible, but I think the main idea is to make your vertical run before the header instead of after it. Consider these two options:

    header A
    Header A

    header B
    Header B

    Aside from the equalizer, the lengths of pipe used are the same, but Header A gives you drier steam.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583

    ChrisJ said:

    Fred said:

    I think the less water carried by the steam into the header, the better (makes for dryer steam) Then any residual water that falls out of the steam, while in the header will flow to the equalizer.

    True,
    But do you think anyone should run risers from the basement up into the attic, and then back down into a drop header? :)

    Trying to give the OP an idea of what to work with.
    I can't remember where I heard it, but I remember someone telling me that water droplets can't go higher than 36". That's not always feasible, but I think the main idea is to make your vertical run before the header instead of after it. Consider these two options:

    header A
    Header A

    header B
    Header B

    Aside from the equalizer, the lengths of pipe used are the same, but Header A gives you drier steam.
    Yes, and header A allows the water to go right back to the boiler without making the full trip.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,583
    edited September 2016

    ChrisJ said:



    I can't remember where I heard it, but I remember someone telling me that water droplets can't go higher than 36". That's not always feasible, but I think the main idea is to make your vertical run before the header instead of after it. .

    That's correct.

    When the water droplets get to 36.5" they recall the ChrisJ statement and make a U turn and head right back down the riser to the boiler. That 36" is definitely the magic number.
    Hap Hazzard said that, not me.

    ChrisJ realizes the height the water climbs is related to the steam velocity and likely other factors.

    I believe the correct term is "Carryover".
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,416
    @Hatterasguy, where is your plumbing/heating contracting company located?
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,294
    Dan he isn't in the industry he's a aeronautical engineer
    E-Travis Mechanical LLC
    Etravismechanical@gmail.com
    201-887-8856
    Charlie from wmass
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,416
    @EzzyT, so @Hatterasguy doesn't install/service steam and/or hot water boilers professionally? Nor does he now or at anytime manage a licensed and insured company which provides such services?
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,294
    Correct
    E-Travis Mechanical LLC
    Etravismechanical@gmail.com
    201-887-8856
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    I dont believe Dan Holohan ran a plumbing company either.Writes very informative books though.
    Gordyb_bz
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    Same could be said for Siggy, I believe.
    Steve Minnich
    jonny88
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,416
    Thanks for the clarification @EzzyT, and yes @jonny88, you are correct. He did, however, work as an industry rep for almost 20 years.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,160
    Interesting comment and thoughts about the maximum height of a water droplet... I doubt that one could put a single number on it! For a given vertical velocity, though, and a given initial droplet size, there will be a increase in the size of the water droplets due to collisions, and at some point they will begin to fall faster than the column of air (or steam) is moving upwards.

    Consider a thunderstorm, however: the maximum height of water droplets going up is in the thousands to tens of thousands of feet!

    Far more effective in ridding the steam of carryover, however, is the bends. Water droplets, being rather heavy, simply can't make the turns as fast as the steam, and will collide with each other and, perhaps more important, the pipe walls. Thus in a drop header, you have three collision points -- one of which, the last, is conveniently at a point where the water which hits the pipe wall can be swept along to the equalizer at the far end. That doesn't happen in an overhead header. I suspect that that is one of the main reasons a drop header is so effective in producing dry steam.

    And a disclaimer for @Danny Scully -- I have some background in plumbing, electrical work, and HVAC, though I never had a Master's license in any of them (silly me). I am a Professional Engineer (boo) -- Civil, Agricultural, and Sanitary -- and a pilot. I give you my best thinking... for what it's worth.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Gordyb_bz
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    Danny I know many industry reps whats your point?
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,416
    I respect that resume @Jamie Hall, and my inquiry regarding @Hatterasguy was not to suggest that you need to be a professional in the plumbing/heating industry to comment.
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,416
    edited September 2016
    @Hatterasguy, how can you professionally install boilers when you "have the time?" Is that your primary source of income? Do you carry unemployment/disability insurance, worker's compensation, liability insurance, pay employee health insurance, employee retirement pay? And what messenger have I shot? I'm honestly just inquiring out of curiosity.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    The ad hominem is stifling.......

    I find a complete deviation from what is perceived as exceptable piping practice from one steam thread to the next.

    It should not matter the persons proffesional back ground when they call someone on it. So long as they are correct. Brian probably does steam velocities in his head.......
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    @Jamie Hall do you still fly?
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,416
    edited September 2016
    @Hatterasguy, are you suggesting I have to communicate with you via PM? Because I have no interest in that. I didn't ask you to do so when you commented on my post. Or, are you suggesting that you work under the guidance of companies who incur the various costs of doing business?
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,416
    @Hatterasguy, I suppose it's proper forum protocols to call someone's work a "turd" and suggest they don't post anything that's not above and beyond manufacturers specifications? You don't know anything about proper. Although, you are factually correct in saying we're done.
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,416
    @Hatterasguy, I guess we're not done if you're commenting yet again, and breaking your own protocol. It amazes me how rude you are. If you look back at everyone of my posts (starting from my original thread), I never once insult you. In fact I do quite the opposite. And yet again you make an insulting comment that I have no understanding of steam velocity, which is factually incorrect, as you would say.
    SteamCoffee
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
    Guys, I didn't mean to start an argument. I didn't even think I was saying anything controversial, but since there's been some debate about it, I thought I'd go back and try to remember where I'd heard it. It turns out I was wrong about the 36" figure. The actual statement was
    The higher the risers the dryer the steam. This is because water is trying to get UP the risers with the steam, but it can't rise higher than 24 inches or so. This is why piping diagrams specify a minimum riser height of 24 inches above the highest possible water level.

    (The original thread is here.)
    So, aside from being wrong about the distance, I took the statement out of its original context. Steamhead's comment was based on the assumption that you're dealing with the output of a given boiler and following the manufacturer's specifications for pipe diameter and number of risers, not a theoretical situation involving any arbitrary steam velocity.
    I apologize for any misunderstanding I might have caused.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,416
    edited September 2016
    My apologies as well @Hap_Hazzard, and @Stephen Minnich, didn't mean to stray from the original question. I hope you were able to find the answers you were looking for.
    Hap_Hazzard