Getting Ready for Gas in Central CT

Rich_49

Charlie from wmass said:

And one was leaking in the heat exchanger.

I'd be willing to bet that there was no exchange problems either . So , how long does it take to get parts from one side of the state to the other ? I,ve helped folks up to 3,000 miles away get stuff within 2 days . Is not carrying parts really the responsibility of the stocking distributor ?

Charlie from wmass

4 days for parts. Heat exchanger covered by warranty, over 2 weeks for that as they had none in inventory

Steamhead

Gentlemen.......................

Rich_49

Steamhead said:

Gentlemen.......................

Yes ?

Charlie from wmass

I have had that oh so hard to get Massachusetts plumbing license since I was 19 years of age. What were you doing at 19 Hat?

Rich_49

Probably in the first year of obtaining a degree in engineering . What kind of question is that ?

Charlie from wmass

Question of experience. Dirt under the fingernails, cold people on Christmas Eve, busting fittings in crawlspaces experience.

jonny88

19 yrs of age in NYC you need seven yrs working under a lic plr on the books even on long island you require 7 yrs.I do know your codes are strict up there how did you get it at 19.My friend got his nyc lic at 25 which I thoyght was impressive

Charlie from wmass

3 years apprenticeship when I got mine. I have literally been in a plumbing truck since 1975 with my father. They gave me credit for one year extra as I had 2 registered years as an apprentice then my father had a heart attack and could not work. I got a waiver to sit the test early. Closed book exam. No calculator. They did supply scratch paper. Needed to get a 70 percent to pass. I got my license January of 1992.

Charlie from wmass

Do you have to do emergency service work on boilers?
Do they tell you your grade? They do not tell us if we get above 70. It is either you got a named grade below 70 or you passed.

Zman

WalnutFarmer said:

Greetings.

I'm a homeowner in central CT. Have been lurking here over the years and have learned a lot as I've undertaken several additions at my home (so thank you!). We currently have oil heat, but gas will be installed in our neighborhood this fall. I'm hoping you all can point me to sources so I can educate myself for the process that will come.

Here are the basics:

1. House: 1975 developer built colonial in central CT. Three additions over the past 17 years. House now totals 3100 sf. Attic has spray foam under the roof deck. All windows have been replaced, so fairly tight envelope overall for a house of this vintage.

2. Heating system: Weil-McClain 68 boiler, 23 years old. Weil-McClain AFG burner. Four baseboard zones, plus fifth zone heated by hot water from boiler circulating through air handler (recent addition where baseboards wouldn't work). Hot water (2.5 baths) is from boiler coil. I've been burning ~800 gallons of oil a year.

3. Family: Me, wife, 3 teenagers. Surprisingly, coil has handled shower load well, but not if two showers need to run simultaneously. Wife and I plan to stay here a while, even as kids depart for college and beyond over next 4 years.

4. Other: I have a propane tank running kitchen range, fireplace and gas grill. During a recent addition, I had these piped to handle gas because I knew it was a possibility.

Given the age of my heating plant (and the fact my oil co. told me two years ago that it was approaching the end of the line), plus the propane appliances, it seems to me a no-brainer to switch to gas. I could also regain some basement space by installing a wall hanging boiler and losing the oil tank.

I have not yet had any contractors in to take a look. I want to be reasonably educated first. Have not had any heat loss calcs done, so I know it's too soon to be spec'ing a system. A few neighbors have started getting quotes, and they have been all over the lot (combi systems, indirect HW, brands, etc)

One thing I have learned reading your threads is that choosing a knowledgeable contractor is paramount. I feel I have to be somewhat knowledgeable myself to make that happen..

My initial questions:

-Any big reasons NOT to switch to gas?

-Where should I start? Any articles or threads you can recommend I read?

-Thoughts on high-efficiency systems vs. regular efficiency?

-Considerations for hot water options (indirect, combi, etc)?

-Any brands to avoid? (I've read that contractor/brand familiarity is more important than brand alone).

-Any other advice?

• • 1. 1. 1. 1. 
                

Many thanks for sharing your wisdom!

This is the original post.
If your post has nothing to do with this. You should start a new one.....

Zman

Hatterasguy said:

Charlie from wmass said:

What defines the wrong boiler? As none of us have seen the job or the heat emitters yet how can we determine what the right boiler is? Short cycling is easily addressed with proper boiler sizing and buffer tank if necessary.

Want to make a bet, and I don't welch on bets, that the Viessmann contractor offers up the Vitodens 200 model 35?

Yes, that would definitely be the wrong boiler.

Oh, the lipstick on the pig approach again? Nice.

This is what instigated it.
Not Nice!

Zman

Charlie from wmass said:

So you illegally installed 15 boilers with voided warranties

Charlie from wmass said:

I have had that oh so hard to get Massachusetts plumbing license since I was 19 years of age. What were you doing at 19 Hat?

Really not nice...

Erin Holohan Haskell

Gentlemen, please stop fighting.

Charlie from wmass

Yes ma'am, sorry for escalating things and going off topic. Celtic blood runs a bit warm somedays.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Thank you!

Tim McElwain

QUESTIONS ASKED????

Any big reasons NOT to switch to gas?

-Where should I start? Any articles or threads you can recommend I read?

-Thoughts on high-efficiency systems vs. regular efficiency?

-Considerations for hot water options (indirect, combi, etc)?

-Any brands to avoid? (I've read that contractor/brand familiarity is more important than brand alone).

-Any other advice?


Many thanks for sharing your wisdom!

Walnut Farmer:

There is really no reason that I can think of that would stop you from switching to gas. There are many pluses and very few negatives.

Second question: Read up on as much as you can but do not overwhelm yourself because the boiler business today has many options and most of the equipment offered is pretty reliable. As you read the different postings here you will get varied opinions as I am sure if you read this entire post it can get very interesting among the different contractors (they are a very proud bunch). I might also say very good at what they do.

Third question:

Being and old timer myself with 67 years in the business (I started when I was nine). I tend to look at lower efficiency more conventional equipment simply because it is less complex and somewhat easier to service with just a little less efficiency.

Fourth question:

With the systems of today I would go with an indirect.

Fifth question:

Pick a good contractor, get a heat loss done and ask a lot of questions of the contractor. When gas first comes into an area everyone (contractors especially) want to catch the first customers so they can get a foothold in the virgin territory. Ask for references and check them out with BBB.

Wish you well and even though I am not a contractor but an educator on gas related subjects feel free to give me a call at 401-437-0557 and I will try and answer any questions you may still have.

Good luck on your choices!

Abracadabra

Rich said:

Steamhead said:

Gentlemen.......................

Yes ?

who? where?

Rich_49

Charlie from wmass said:

4 days for parts. Heat exchanger covered by warranty, over 2 weeks for that as they had none in inventory

@Zman ,

Why would you point to an answer to a question as "Off Topic " Carl ?
Charlie was responding to my question directly .
I would like to add that Erin has done a fine job as of late keeping everything in order . I was just wondering if she reached out to or deputized you to the HHPD ?

I would now ask permission for Charlie to respond to another question I have . Charlie , you said they had none in stock , were tou referring to the HX or the Pioneer ?

Charlie from wmass

I sent you an answer to your profile page.

WalnutFarmer

I'm glad to have provided fodder for some debate, but find myself no more educated than when I first posted. My main takeaways are:

1. Reinforced the importance of heat loss calcs by zone to make sure furnace choice is appropriate (still reliant on the installer for the second part of this).
2. Given the same set of facts, two professional installers can have very different views about how to proceed.

Still hoping someone will chime in with some basic questions I should be asking, situations I should be avoiding, etc.

Thanks again.

Charlie from wmass

The question of a heat loss will really narrow down the field. If the boiler the installer chooses is aluminum a conversation about water quality needs to be had. Also if the installer does not mention yearly service requirements for any boiler they choose that is a red flag as they all need serviced to some degree to get long term efficiency from them.

Zman

The heat loss calc and the inventory of emitters is something you should be able to handle yourself.

Another factor is the ease of upgrading the vents and space limitations. Pictures will help with this.

Slant fin and other manufactures have free software available.

Inventory of emitters is just measuring the heaters in each room.

You can always post specific questions here if you get confused.

Asking a potential installer to do this will certainly thin the herd. Depending on your area you may not find anyone willing or able.

Once you have this info, you will get more specific advice.
In my mind, the best system is dependent on your individual circumstances. No two are exactly the same.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Agreed, @WalnutFarmer. Sorry this thread ran away from us. Thanks for getting this one back on track guys.

Rich_49

WalnutFarmer said:

Greetings.

I'm a homeowner in central CT. Have been lurking here over the years and have learned a lot as I've undertaken several additions at my home (so thank you!). We currently have oil heat, but gas will be installed in our neighborhood this fall. I'm hoping you all can point me to sources so I can educate myself for the process that will come.

Here are the basics:

1. House: 1975 developer built colonial in central CT. Three additions over the past 17 years. House now totals 3100 sf. Attic has spray foam under the roof deck. All windows have been replaced, so fairly tight envelope overall for a house of this vintage.

2. Heating system: Weil-McClain 68 boiler, 23 years old. Weil-McClain AFG burner. Four baseboard zones, plus fifth zone heated by hot water from boiler circulating through air handler (recent addition where baseboards wouldn't work). Hot water (2.5 baths) is from boiler coil. I've been burning ~800 gallons of oil a year.

3. Family: Me, wife, 3 teenagers. Surprisingly, coil has handled shower load well, but not if two showers need to run simultaneously. Wife and I plan to stay here a while, even as kids depart for college and beyond over next 4 years.

4. Other: I have a propane tank running kitchen range, fireplace and gas grill. During a recent addition, I had these piped to handle gas because I knew it was a possibility.

Given the age of my heating plant (and the fact my oil co. told me two years ago that it was approaching the end of the line), plus the propane appliances, it seems to me a no-brainer to switch to gas. I could also regain some basement space by installing a wall hanging boiler and losing the oil tank.

I have not yet had any contractors in to take a look. I want to be reasonably educated first. Have not had any heat loss calcs done, so I know it's too soon to be spec'ing a system. A few neighbors have started getting quotes, and they have been all over the lot (combi systems, indirect HW, brands, etc)

One thing I have learned reading your threads is that choosing a knowledgeable contractor is paramount. I feel I have to be somewhat knowledgeable myself to make that happen..

My initial questions:

-Any big reasons NOT to switch to gas?

-Where should I start? Any articles or threads you can recommend I read?

-Thoughts on high-efficiency systems vs. regular efficiency?

-Considerations for hot water options (indirect, combi, etc)?

-Any brands to avoid? (I've read that contractor/brand familiarity is more important than brand alone).

-Any other advice?

• • 1. 1. 1. 1. 
                

Many thanks for sharing your wisdom!

Let's try this again .

Room by room and then zone by zone Heat loss should be performed . Please try to take into account rooms that may be on the same zone that have differing heat gain and loss characteristics , this is important . Emitter survey must be examined and accounted for also .

No matter the HX material used , water quality should be addressed and maintained , whether Al , SS , CI . Cast iron being the most forgiving . different types of boilers have different maintenance requirements , they all require maintenance .

Based on your past oil usage , percentage of that for DHW and the fact that you have 5 zones it would appear that the house has a relatively small BTU sf requirement for space heating . Must know for sure though .

Buffering may very well be a non negotiable insofar as whether or not you want to eliminate short cycling for a major portion of a heating season . There is equipment available that has the mass capable of eliminating this while still spending like dollars for wall hung stuff that would require an additional equipment purchase and the associated labor and additional space needed .

We'll be here to help as needed and hope you will engage to the point that would allow us to best assist .

A certain amount of free thought and research pertaining to what is being told to you would also behoove you as to what may be best in reality as opposed to what works in modeling in a program .

Charlie from wmass

@Rich what is your opinion on using a Biasi or similar cast iron boiler with a power burner? I have had good success success on several microzone oil to gas conversions. I have reliably been able to get them into that 84 to 87% efficiency range utilizing the mass of the boiler instead of using a buffer tank where space was limited and due to the window and egress configuration I could not vent out through the sidewall.
Granted the buffer tank and wall hung boiler worked very well for brewbeer.
I tend to use the power burners more on my Steam systems that I will be servicing in the future and the local Flavour of wall hung boiler if they will be using local service after I get done an installation.

Rich_49

@Charlie from wmass

Give me a model for the Biasi or similar boiler . then I'd be happy to share an opinion .

Charlie from wmass

I have use the B10 and SG. The B10 mostly as oil fired only twice as gas one propane one natural and the SG about an even split between the three fuels. Also the propane boiler owners were not sure if they wanted to give up oil so this allowed them to backout if they decided to go back to oil, granted the boilers would then be slightly too big if fired at factory fire ratings on oil.

WalnutFarmer

Thank you Tim, Zman, Rich and Charlie for bringing us back on topic. (And thank you Erin for stepping in )

I'm meeting with the first contractor this week. He is someone I know, and I certainly hope he is capable.

Since posting my first question, I've spoken with a couple neighbors who are in the same boat and have already met with potential installers. None have yet done heat loss and/or emitter surveys. I suspect I will have to push for this.

At the end of the day, I'm not burning enough fuel to worry about squeezing the last 1% of efficiency out of a system. Just don't want create waste and/or headache when it can be reasonably avoided.

I hope to be back with more specific questions later!

Thanks again.

Paul48

I am a homeowner in CT, with a mechanical background, and a knowledge "geek".

I'd just like to caution you about a couple things.....Beware the "Fast Shuffle". That's a contractor that hot-foots it down to your boiler and writes down the info. He doesn't have time to talk to you, he's very busy. If you ask about a "heat-loss", he'll tell you they don't need to do one of those. After all, they've been doing boilers for 35 years.

We've seen countless homeowners here, that have fallen victim to that scenario. And when they're here, it ain't good. Maybe the pros will disagree, but I'd want to have a contract "in hand", that states that the equipment will be installed to "Factory Specification". Notice, I didn't say boiler......because there is specifications for much of the peripheral components, as well.

Steamhead

Rich said:

@Charlie from wmass

Give me a model for the Biasi or similar boiler . then I'd be happy to share an opinion .

Have to put in a plug here for the Solaia boilers that Boyertown Furnace sells. These are Biasi-based- nicely made, as efficient as any CI hot-water boiler out there and Dave Thomas, who runs Boyertown Furnace, is one of the best in the business. So is Rose Marie Bartchak, who works for Dave.

http://www.boyertownfurnace.com/residentialproducts/SolaiaBoilers.aspx

Charlie from wmass

@Steamhead that's the B10. I put an oil fired one in my father's house.

Steamhead

Right. But I like to deal with Dave and Rose Marie.

Charlie from wmass

@WalnutFarmer honestly our choices as contractors are biased based on the human face we interact with while installing and servicing your equipment. Example one supplyhouse is brand B boiler almost exclusively yet they seldom stock repair parts and make us feel like we are bothing them asking about warranty coverage for customers or express shipping of parts in January. Supply house 2 has brand W boiler and several other brands available, they are sometimes a bit less efficient but parts are either in stock or express shipped even in summer weather. We feel valued and appreciated as customers and can supply our customers with better service. This is how boilers are chosen by conscientious contractors IMHO.
This assumes that the boilers are both sized properly for the system they are used on.

Rich_49

In answer to your earlier question Charlie .

I would probably not use a Biasi with an input of 70K anticipating a much lower demand for this man's home . I would probably be inclined to use something like this http://fergusonhvacchicago.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Force-lit-sheet.pdf or the Buderus GC144 . I would however based on price point of the Biasi offer a mod con (UFT 80) and give them same efficiency with the added benefit of modulation and less standby loss while also saving them roughly 900.00 on the boiler portion and use the difference for a nice 30 gallon SS indirect and mixing valve for DHW.
Another possibility would be to install the fore mentioned Frankenstein unit with a Delta T circ and a 40 plate HX for DHW for less total cost then the Biasi , indirect or stand alone water heater .

That's just my opinion though . Our local utility also offers a 10,000.00 no interest loan for oil / gas conversions too so it helps to upgrade folks into something they otherwise might pass on

Charlie from wmass

I was asking about the boiler line not a specific size. But thank you for your indepth response. Granted output is only 51k for the biasi. Then we get into the domestic water production debate. 45 degree inlet temperature in central Connecticut.

WalnutFarmer

Quick update for you all:

I did my own heat loss analysis using the Slant Fin calculator. I'm sure it's not perfect, but it came up with 87,000 BTU/Hr (I used 68° indoor/6° outdoor temps for CT... hope that is correct).

I measured out my 5 zones and used each zone as a "room" in the heat loss analysis. I think the situation is a bit tricky, because three of my zones are on one floor and they open up to each other, so I'm sure there is some "sharing" of BTUs across the zones. Not sure it matters.

Here is my zone by zone details.

The initial contractor I met with did not do a heat loss but says he will need to do that in order to get permits. He verbally told me he would probably recommend the Lochinvar Knight KHN110 (plus indirect). As I understand it, this unit has a 10:1 turndown, so the 110k BTU could turn down to 11,000, which would be below my lowest zone demand. I'm hoping this means short-cycling would not be a major issue. So while he did not do a heat loss, he may have landed on the right boiler.

Sound reasonable to you all?

Thanks.

Charlie from wmass

It does. What is the coldest weather you experience? I realise we do not usually size to that, I am just curious. Also do you plan to live in the home into retirement? I ask that as I have had 3 customers during the 2014/2015 winter with properly sized boilers who were complaining about the lack of heat during that particularly cold spell that year. I found they expected the home to reach 72 as they felt cold below that temperature.

Rich_49

Change the Outdoor temp to 35* and see what the numbers say . Design does not happen that often and the warmer it is outside the more short cycling will take place .

I still cannot figure out how contractors are still giving prices without having done any due dilligence or an emitter survey . For instance , what type of baseboard do you have that will output 803 BTUh per lf ?

Aging in place is also a concern as Charlie mentioned , oft overlooked by many but a serious consideration as older folks will require more heat and while now they turn the heat on at 60* , in the future that will probably change to 65* and progressively get worse . The base temp will change in almost all circumstances .

Charlie from wmass

Slightly off topic sorry but, @ Rich I had a customer in 2014 that due to a medical condition in the wife's eyes needs to keep the house at 72 degrees. This meant that I had to change the warm-weather shutdown to allow the heat to run even if it was 68 degrees. I was happy the boiler could modulate above the projected heat loss of 68 indoor air temperature. I had simply used the smallest availible boiler that qualified for the 96% efficiency tier of the rebate program.
As for sizing without heat loss, I think the wide range of the early modcon boilers lead to more guesstimating then it did proper heat losses.