Venting added to 120 year old two pipe steam system

hrad

My house has a two pipe steam system. The original boiler was huge and coal fired. It was changed to gas fired in the fifties and some radiators changed to baseboard type. That boiler was replaced after about 90 years. When the replacement boiler was installed the contractor took out a few burners from a commercial boiler so it would cycle longer because the piping was vary large taking a lot of steam to fill. That contractor added vents at the end of return lines before loop back into boiler. That boiler lasted less than twenty years. It and the lower pipes were full of rust.
A new small boiler was just installed and the piping changed back similar to original which had two risers from boiler (now one large pipe feeds the two risers horizontally). The heat is better to larger loop which feeds far side of house.

A lot of steam escapes the return loop vents and new water is always being added to boiler. I am concerned about the chemistry of the water in the boiler and its life. I have added a water filter to the supply line (the water quality in my city is very good). I plan to add some chemicals to the boiler water.

Should those vents that were added twenty years ago be there?
I did replace a few traps then and do not know if they all work now. I believe all radiators get hot (unless their valve turned off).
Thanks for any advise.

Steamhead

Take some pictures of the boiler, the piping around the boiler and a few radiators and post them here. Let's take a look at it.

Jamie Hall

Oy. Well, first off, please do as Steamhead suggested -- take a few picture. Might even try to make a sketch of the system and post that!

Second, the original system probably had only a few vents, since coal boilers heat rather slowly and don't need that much venting -- and once they were hot, they stayed hot.

To continue... steam should never escape from a vent. They are meant to close when steam hits them. If they don't, they're toast. Maybe they need to be replaced. Maybe they aren't needed. Without a sketch or more detail, that's hard to say. More likely they are needed; your description of the location sounds plausible anyway. Can you include a picture of some of them, as well? Correct venting is essential to even heat!

Adding water to a steam system shouldn't be needed, or at least very little -- a gallon or two a month, perhaps. More suggests a problem. It might be those vents. It might be leaks elsewhere. This should be followed up.

The size of the boiler -- or the number of burners (I take it this is gas) is determined by the connected radiation -- called the "EDR". The pipe size going to the radiators has nothing to do with it. There are books available on this site -- in the store -- to help you figure out what radiators you have, and what their EDR is. Add those up, and that will give you the size boiler required.

Also important is keeping the pressure as low as possible. There will be a control on the boiler -- most likely a "pressurestat" which does that. Can you include picture of all the controls on the boiler?

I'll think of more... !

JUGHNE

Your last boiler of 20 years may well have died because of fresh water being added too often. It is not the water usually but the O2 in the fresh water that attacks the boiler and wet piping which you said was real rusty. Water filters and chemicals will probably do little for you. Steam from vent is not good, that means more fresh water.
What you should also look for are any pipes below the water line in the sight glass that may be leaking (these pipes are always full of water). Especially any pipes that come out of the floor or lower wall.
Please include these in your pictures along with what Steamhead requested.

hrad

hrad

The vents that spit a lot are on the insulated main loops at the ends. I put steel sheets to protect wood floor and rafters. There is another on the end of the returns that does not seem to spit.

hrad

There are only three of the original radiators in the system. The rest were changed to crane cast baseboard style (white one in pics).

Steamhead

How about some pics of the originals?

hrad

hrad

Forgot to post pics of controls

Steamhead

The pressure control is set way too high- crank it down!

hrad

These were used for 120 years, the others 60+.

Steamhead

This is a Webster Vapor system, or more accurately, what's left of one. The trap is a #512H. The system was designed to run on maybe 8 ounces, and the pressure control on the boiler won't go that low- you need a Vaporstat.

hrad

Will that be adequate for the new crane radiators? So I need to change controls to a Vaporstat. Where do I get one and any model number?
Oh Thanks BTW

hrad

OK I googled the Vaporstat

Steamhead

This one:

https://customer.honeywell.com/en-US/Pages/Product.aspx?cat=HonECC+Catalog&pid=L408J1009/U&category=L408J&catpath=1.2.15.6.12&rank=0&v1=Sort.1.Product.Rank&asc=1

hrad

Looks like the control goes down to .5 PSI which would be 8 OZ right? I wonder if the traps are damaged.

Steamhead

No, that's the cut-in pressure- where it turns the burner back on after shutting it off at some higher pressure. You can set the Vaporstat to cut out at 8 ounces and cut in at maybe four ounces or so.

These low pressures require properly large main vents. Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains and we'll tell you what you need.

hrad

Do you mean the total loops in basement ?

hrad

Will tomorrow. Thanks

Steamhead

Where are you located?

Sailah

If you want to send the trap internals to me I'll be happy to test them for you. I have a Warren Webster 512 here. steam heads eye is good I knew it was a WW trap but wasn't willing to commit to the model number ha. I think another trap was a Sterling I saw?

BobC

First of all I agree that system is running at much to high a pressure, follow Steamheads advise and install a vaporstat. Then the traps have to be checked to see if they still work.

Are there any returns that go under the cellar floor, that could hide a leak. You have to get the water use of that boiler down or it will fail.

The pics you posted are good for the detail they provide but we need to see more of the system configuration, take some wide angle shots so we can see how it's all tied together

Your large vents are Hoffman 75's by the looks of them, they vent at about 0.5cfm and might be too small. They also have not been the most reliable vents in my experience. Depending on the length and diameter of your steam mains you might be better served by the Barnes and Jones Big Mouth that vents about 4X faster.

Bob

hrad

Located in Cleveland OH. Main loop is 72' and 2.5" pipe. Small loop 25' and 2" pipe. Both start about three foot up from main horizontal out from boiler. Will get more pics. One 2.5" out from boiler up to elbow and the horizontal with the two loops feed up from, than back down to boiler bottom.

hrad

Better pic of most traps. They would be hard to get to; do you think they all need to be removed and tested?

hrad

More pics

hrad

No returns through floor. Lowest returns visible and some were rusted out and replaced with new boiler. They were insulated and maybe that held moisture and made outside rust.

BobC

your 72 ft main has about 2.4 cu ft so since your going to have to replace the Hoffman's I would use the Big Mouth air vent , for the shorter main I would use 2 Gorton #1's (or the maid o mist #1's) to keep the main venting somewhat balanced. They can all be bought from Amazon

The Hartford loop looks a bit high but if it's not banging leave it alone.

Bob

KC_Jones

hrad said:

Located in Cleveland OH. Main loop is 72' and 2.5" pipe. Small loop 25' and 2" pipe. Both start about three foot up from main horizontal out from boiler. Will get more pics. One 2.5" out from boiler up to elbow and the horizontal with the two loops feed up from, than back down to boiler bottom.

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/g-w-gill-plumbing-and-heating

Call Gerry you won't regret it.

hrad

Thanks. Is that two Gorton's ?

Steamhead

KC_Jones said:

hrad said:

Located in Cleveland OH. Main loop is 72' and 2.5" pipe. Small loop 25' and 2" pipe. Both start about three foot up from main horizontal out from boiler. Will get more pics. One 2.5" out from boiler up to elbow and the horizontal with the two loops feed up from, than back down to boiler bottom.

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/g-w-gill-plumbing-and-heating

Call Gerry you won't regret it.

Second that. Gerry is one of the best.

BobC

Yes two Gorton #1's on the short main. They have a combined venting capacity of 0.66 CFM and that would balance nicely with the Big Mouth's venting capacity on the long main.

If you can get Gerry to work on your system i agree you would be all set, he is one of the best in the country.

Bob

SteamCoffee

Hrad, your getting the very best in advice about your system in at least 2 ways, the pro's telling you whats wrong and you live in Cleveland.... Unless you are a Browns fan. Gerry Gill is a an expert....the only way you can go wrong is not to take the advice. Let's us know how ir all returns out..

SteamCoffee

Actually, looks like a Sterling Vapor system, IIRC they are still in business up in Milwaukee....cool

Jamie Hall

KC_Jones said:

hrad said:

Located in Cleveland OH. Main loop is 72' and 2.5" pipe. Small loop 25' and 2" pipe. Both start about three foot up from main horizontal out from boiler. Will get more pics. One 2.5" out from boiler up to elbow and the horizontal with the two loops feed up from, than back down to boiler bottom.

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/g-w-gill-plumbing-and-heating

Call Gerry you won't regret it.

Cleveland? You ARE in luck. As @KC_Jones says, Gerry is one of the very best in the business, and he's right there. He'll set you right.

Sailah

I don't need all the traps to test but if you send me 5 and 4 are bad that should tell you what you should plan on replacing. They don't last forever.

Steamhead

SteamCoffee said:

Actually, looks like a Sterling Vapor system, IIRC they are still in business up in Milwaukee....cool

I was referring to the one on the radiator. That is a Webster 512H. The one shown on the Crane baseboard is a Sterling.

Steamhead

That's an American Rococo Window Radiator.

20" high= 5 sq. Ft./section
16" = 3.75
13" = 3

JUGHNE

It looks as if there is a place to add chemicals/cleaning compounds at the pop off valve....the increaser coupling.

But did anyone see a skim port or valve?

What is the consensus on the odd galv fitting stuck in with the black piping? I have a selection of galv fittings/nipples I would like to have a good home. At least 2 of the steam boilers I work on have their building scheduled for demo in the next 5? years so I stick galv in as needed.
Other than standing out like an unpainted fender on a new car how much harm is done......in my case anyway??

SteamCoffee

Steamhead said:

SteamCoffee said:

Actually, looks like a Sterling Vapor system, IIRC they are still in business up in Milwaukee....cool

I was referring to the one on the radiator. That is a Webster 512H. The one shown on the Crane baseboard is a Sterling.

Ahhh, I missed that! A bit of mix and match... Either way, the Webster or the Sterling were nice systems, would love to hear how this ends...

hrad

Thank you for everyone's comments and help. I have contacted the contractor who installed this. I referred him to this site. I have left several phone messages since with no reply. What should I do?
I am told he has a hydronics license. He was a bit insulted when he took on the job and I told him the last boiler installer did not know what he was doing. He said he just replaced what was there before (which lasted 10-15 years) when I last spoke with him.
I suppose I will contact BBB, but that does not help help make this boiler last for its intended lifespan.