another drop header

Paul S_3

Installation is in Queens NYC. Williamson boiler 100K ....home has 228 SQ FT of EDR....Removed a 150K boiler....Full 3 inch drop header....2 inch equalizer...2inch king valve....installed Honeywell vaporstat set at 12 OZ's CO....7 OZ's CI... hopefully this vaporstat doesnt give me problems like most of them...installed 0 to 3 PSI gauge with ball valve....1 1/2 " skim port....Installed programmable feeder.....12 hour day 10am to 10pm..going back in about a week to install backflow

ll


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DanHolohan

A thing of beauty, Paul. They were lucky to find you. Thanks for sharing.

Paul S_3

Thanks Dan....its an honor to get a compliment from you.

EzzyT

Nice install Paul

Paul S_3

Thanks @EzzyT

ChrisJ

Sexy

ChrisJ

The install I mean.

Fred

Looks Great!

PinkTavo

Question...I see the box is Slantfin, but the boiler is labeled Williamson. I guess they are one in the same?

Steve Ebels_3

That's some nice header work right there..

DanHolohan

Steve! Good to hear from you. I sent a radiant customer your way last week.

Steve Ebels_3

I'll confess I haven't been here much the last couple years Dan. Lot's of "life" happening in the Steve Ebels tribe. 13 grandkids will do that to you....
Plus mom is needing more care as she is fighting congestive heart failure related to her age. (86 in October) I live right across the street so you know who gets called.

Both boys are working with me now and are becoming top notch fitters and technicians. Matthew (youngest) actually apprenticed with a contractor up in Traverse City for a year before settling down with dad. Andy has been with me since he got out of HVAC at Ferris State.

I send them around to various factory schools and one of the instructors at Lochinvar asked Andy why he wasn't teaching the class there. Made me a wee bit proud....

We've been "gainfully employed" to say the least, for the last couple years here in the farm country with all the dairy guys being on a building binge. A couple of the farms we've done recently were amazing jobs with the horsepower and complexity of the system far exceeding anything we've done residentially. Multiple water temps, 70GPM domestic hot water demand, pasturizers....you name it. It's been fun and the learning curve is nearly vertical because you basically have to design from scratch on these systems.
I love a good challenge yet.

I had dinner with Paul Rohrs when he was up this way a month or so ago. We actually met up in Traverse and laid waste...or was that waist.... to the Olive Garden there while discussing the industry, family and of course all things hydronic. Was good to touch base with him again.

Tom Steiger (of Area 51 fame) drove all the way up from Cleveland to look at an ancient steam system we were working on. The building was constructed shortly after the lumber boom in the 1800's and all the steam piping is original yet. His mental "data base" on steam carries a few more MB's than mine given there is so little of it up here anymore. You would get a bang out of that system and what we did to it.

I'll probably be able to stay in touch a little more here in the foreseeable future.
Good to be back.

DanHolohan

Gosh, it's so good to hear your voice. I've missed you. I'm retired now and Erin owns the place, but I'm still writing. Great to hear about the lads. I'm proud of them as well. And prayers for Mom. Thanks for getting in touch, Steve.

BUCK_2

COULD OF MADE IT WORK ALOT CHEAPER !!!!!!

ChrisJ

BUCK said:

COULD OF MADE IT WORK ALOT CHEAPER !!!!!!

So BUCK.
Tell us all how you would've done it. We all like to learn.

Abracadabra

BUCK said:

COULD OF MADE IT WORK ALOT CHEAPER !!!!!!

@BUCK please turn off your caps. It looks like you're shouting.

Thanks!

STEAM DOCTOR

@Paul S. Fyi, Williamson does not allow hooking the return to the right side. They want the return on same side of boiler as the controls. They also do not allow the use of the right hand supply tapping. Don't remember off hand if that's only when using one supply tapping or even when using both. Doesn't make any sense. Just thought that I would let you know. Probably shouldn't say this out loud but I have installed many Williamsons without adhering to the above.

STEAM DOCTOR

@Abracadabra. One needs to shout when saying ridiculous things. Only way to get people to pay attention.

ChrisJ

STEAM DOCTOR said:

@Paul S. Fyi, Williamson does not allow hooking the return to the right side. They want the return on same side of boiler as the controls. They also do not allow the use of the right hand supply tapping. Don't remember off hand if that's only when using one supply tapping or even when using both. Doesn't make any sense. Just thought that I would let you know. Probably shouldn't say this out loud but I have installed many Williamsons without adhering to the above.

I see minimums just as in Weil-Mclain's manual but absolutely nothing about not being allowed.

Saying they won't allow both tappings to be used doesn't make any sense as you said. Using only one tapping, it does make sense as that tapping tends to pull water in one direction.

Not sure on the return, but I used the same return as Paul. I couldn't find anything about it in the manual unless I missed it.

Bob Bona_4

Chris...cue the meme..

nice looking job Paul, down to the stand offs for the feed.

ChrisJ

BUCK said:

COULD OF MADE IT WORK ALOT CHEAPER !!!!!!

Bob Bona said:

Chris...cue the meme..



nice looking job Paul, down to the stand offs for the feed.

KC_Jones

BUCK said:

COULD OF MADE IT WORK ALOT CHEAPER !!!!!!

I used to work with a guy that bought a used car every year for next to nothing like $100-$200. The car always had a "valid" inspection sticker, but was basically a pile of junk. When the inspection expired he got rid of it and bought another one. If the car broke before then he got rid of it and bought another one. It "worked", but is that really what most of us want? For something to just "work". Working doesn't = right. Of course we are all entitled to our opinions and that is mine.

STEAM DOCTOR

@ChrisJ. Nothing about right hand tappings in manual. Spoke with them on phone. If memory serves me correctly, the right hand tappings are not listed in the manual. As far as Williamson is concerned, those tappings don't exist. If you are fortunate enough to discover their existence, you are not supposed to use them. Doesn't make much sense.

SWEI

KC_Jones said:

I used to work with a guy that bought a used car every year for next to nothing like $100-$200. The car always had a "valid" inspection sticker, but was basically a pile of junk. When the inspection expired he got rid of it and bought another one.

Brings back memories of working in LA in the mid-eighties. People would buy $200-$500 beater cars and not register or insure them. They'd park wherever they wanted (a huge deal on the westside) and not pay the parking tickets. After a year or two, the car would get booted and they'd just buy another.

STEAM DOCTOR

@ChrisJ . Take a look at Williamson's manual. No notice and no mention of alternative supply/return tappings

Paul S_3

@BUCK if i worked like that i wouldve probably been out of business like most of the contractors around me, it looks professional and i get referred, i love what i do and i enjoy installing a steam boiler that way...and in my short career of 12 years i have installed about 50 steamers this way and never had a problem....cant say the same for my competition..... @STEAM DOCTOR i remember you telling me this a while back i never looked into it....i wonder why they would say this?

New England SteamWorks

Paul, I think your install is great and I surely don't understand why anyone would shout at you about it. Good work, as you say, is nothing to be ashamed of and is the key to getting even more work.

As far as the tappings go, I think there is a lot to the "As far as Williamson is concerned those tappings don't exist". Quite a while ago I once asked our distributor if there was any difference between the Weil and equivalent Williamson. His reply: "The Williamson is missing a few tappings that the Weil has".

I think it's just a marketing thing. They are the exact same boilers as far as I can tell, but the Williamson has a better price point, and it can be private labeled. And they pretend the plugged tappings don't exist.

If I do Williamson, I always use both tappings, and the return tapping that works best for my layout. But if one is only going to use one tapping, -then I would follow their instructions to the letter.

Fred

I have seen a lot of products (not necessarily boilers) where the rebadge/reseller agreement restricts the marketing/use of the full compliment of features/functions for no reason other than it reduces the competition between the offerings, especially when one of the parties intends to offer a price advantage or sell at a lower profit margin. I suspect that is what is happening here, with WM and Williamson. They can't market the full capabilites of the WM for a price that is less than WM. Theory being it increases the number of boxes sold, using the reseller channel but to what is suppose to be a different audience.

Steamhead

BUCK said:

COULD OF MADE IT WORK ALOT CHEAPER !!!!!!

Dave0176

Williamson vs Weil-McLain, = different color jacket.

@Paul S that's the way to get the job done, we like SUPER dry steam in our business.

Also after seeing some your installs I'm going the same route as you, using 3" on the tappings, even the little EG30, and 35.

Paul S_3

@Dave0176 ....i find it easier to go full size....i have a few 2.5 inch installs out there....plus i stock more 3 inch fittings in my shop....i just have a few 2.5 inch stuff.....i love your recent 4inch drop header ....nice work.....i have a 6 inch job starting this week....4 in risers...into 6 in header....4 in take offs.....with some Barnes & Jones big mouth vents that i bought from Peter today.....and thanks for the referral to W A Birdsall great boiler supply house.... i purchase alot of material from them now.

SeanBeans

I talked to someone on the phone at birds all about the bigmouth, he told me it was the ugliest vent he had ever seen lololol but they got good stuff.

Fred

SeanBeans said:

I talked to someone on the phone at birds all about the bigmouth, he told me it was the ugliest vent he had ever seen lololol but they got good stuff.

He must not know much about vents. The bigmouth is one of the best looking and more importantly best built, best functions main vents there is.

JohnNY

We really really need a practical way to test for the water content in steam.

ChrisJ

JohnNY said:

We really really need a practical way to test for the water content in steam.

Test the TDS of the wet return vs the boiler.

For example, mine is 1 to 2 PPM but the boiler is usually around 500 PPM. This proves I'm producing practically pure distilled water in the radiators and mains The 1 to 2 PPM is likely rust or other stuff from the radiators.

If it had any amount of carry over, that would raise the TDS because it brings junk with it.

JohnNY

ChrisJ said:

JohnNY said:

We really really need a practical way to test for the water content in steam.

Test the TDS of the wet return vs the boiler.

For example, mine is 1 to 2 PPM but the boiler is usually around 500 PPM. This proves I'm producing practically pure distilled water in the radiators and mains The 1 to 2 PPM is likely rust or other stuff from the radiators.

If it had any amount of carry over, that would raise the TDS because it brings junk with it.

Wouldn't it just as likely mean you've got nice clean radiators and piping?

ChrisJ

JohnNY said:

ChrisJ said:

JohnNY said:

We really really need a practical way to test for the water content in steam.

Test the TDS of the wet return vs the boiler.

For example, mine is 1 to 2 PPM but the boiler is usually around 500 PPM. This proves I'm producing practically pure distilled water in the radiators and mains The 1 to 2 PPM is likely rust or other stuff from the radiators.

If it had any amount of carry over, that would raise the TDS because it brings junk with it.

Wouldn't it just as likely mean you've got nice clean radiators and piping?

Nope.
When you push water up with the steam it brings minerals with it rather than being a pure gas.

Pure distilled water would in theory be 0 PPM meaning zero water droplets were carried with it.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

JohnNY said:

ChrisJ said:

JohnNY said:

We really really need a practical way to test for the water content in steam.

Test the TDS of the wet return vs the boiler.

For example, mine is 1 to 2 PPM but the boiler is usually around 500 PPM. This proves I'm producing practically pure distilled water in the radiators and mains The 1 to 2 PPM is likely rust or other stuff from the radiators.

If it had any amount of carry over, that would raise the TDS because it brings junk with it.

Wouldn't it just as likely mean you've got nice clean radiators and piping?

Nope.
When you push water up with the steam it brings minerals with it rather than being a pure gas.

Pure distilled water would in theory be 0 PPM meaning zero water droplets were carried with it.

"Push water" is a bit of a misstatement.

We are not speaking about boilers that are sending measurable liquid up into the system and which might appear at the vents.

A typical system with a minimal header might send 95% dry steam up to the rads. A system with a large drop header and low steam velocity might send 99% dry steam up to the rads.

The difference in actual water content is quite small for these two boilers and I'm not convinced that TDS would be a good parameter to measure to verify that difference.

It would be interesting to see if a boiler piped barely to manufacturer specs (or slightly less) would actually give anything significant for TDS.

Maybe, I don't know.
It's all I've got to go by and I think I found that in some literature about maintaining commercial boilers years ago. It made sense, so I went with it.

For that matter, what effect on performance would 5% water have on steam? You're in theory still getting the same amount of energy out of the boiler, no? The water should fall out and run down the mains while dry steam ends up in the radiators, and if not, it'll just join the condensate in the radiator in the end.

What percentage of wet steam effects efficiency and by how much?
What's the overall cost difference between running a system at 1 oz vs 1/2 PSI vs 1 PSI vs 2 PSI? Is it even noticeable?

DanHolohan

94% quality steam at 200 psig contains the same latent-heat Btu as 98% quality steam at 0 psig.

From page 41 of TLAOSH

ChrisJ

DanHolohan said:

94% quality steam at 200 psig contains the same latent-heat Btu as 98% quality steam at 0 psig.

From page 41 of TLAOSH

Ok.
But what does that mean to a typical steam boiler's efficiency? A boiler producing wet steam will need to transfer more steam to produce it's output, but it's still going to produce it's rated output one way or another, no?



@Hatterasguy Is any of this usable to you at this link?

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wet-steam-quality-d_426.html

"Steam - produced in a boiler where the heat is supplied to the water and where the steam is in contact with the water surface of the boiler - contains approximately 5% water by mass."

I assume some of that or all of that falls out in the header, in theory?

Mad Dog_2

Very pretty job. Hey Ebels...shoot me an email. Mad Dog