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Has anyone read this?

Tinman
Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
www.linkedin.com/hp/update/6170345427108380672

Thoughts?

It's disturbing to see the number of "likes" and, more specifically, who is liking it.
Steve Minnich
Zman

Comments

  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    I copied the link but it looks like it didn't work. It's an article about why boilers with turndowns is a scam.
    Steve Minnich
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Seems like they're all patting themselves on the back over their supposed understanding. I'm guessing it's based on tankless water heater designs and not on the current generation of 10:1 turndown boilers.
    Hatterasguydelta T
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    @SWEI - Not sure what I did wrong with the "copy" but thanks for the assist. I meant to say high turndowns instead of turndowns which makes his argument even more baffling.
    Steve Minnich
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    And we're checking combustion at low and high fire and I have yet to see any major problems, other than the ones Ironman has talked about with LP. But, those are solvable too thanks to him.
    Steve Minnich
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    I certainly am not appreciative of their attitude. They mention all these different pitfalls and problems with large turndowns, so solve them!
  • FranklinD
    FranklinD Member Posts: 399
    I'm not an expert, nor should I probably comment, but I read through the provided link and have to ask....what in the world is a "Sales Engineer"?
    Ford Master Technician, "Tinkerer of Terror"
    Police & Fire Equipment Lead Mechanic, NW WI
    Lover of Old Homes & Gravity Hot Water Systems
    Rich_49delta T
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    Slightly lower on the totem pole than a sanitation engineer. :wink:
    FranklinDdelta T
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,588
    FranklinD said:

    I'm not an expert, nor should I probably comment, but I read through the provided link and have to ask....what in the world is a "Sales Engineer"?

    Sales engineer?
    Oh, you may be more famiilar with the older term, Con artist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick


    A confidence trick (synonyms include confidence game, confidence scheme, ripoff, scam and stratagem) is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence, used in the classical sense of trust. Confidence tricks exploit characteristics of the human psyche such as dishonesty, honesty, vanity, compassion, credulity, irresponsibility, naïveté and greed.

    Sounds like a car salesman eh? Or, any politician really.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    FranklinD
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    It really depends on the company and the engineer.
    FranklinD
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    I've known some who were great guys, went out of their way even if they knew it probably would not result in a sale. Others were the kind that made you count the silverware after they left.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    FranklinD
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    I agree with that to a degree. Any time I deal with someone that has a commission based salary, I am very careful with my decisions.
    Steve Minnich
    FranklinDSolid_Fuel_Man
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    I know of many companies which employ sales engineers. Sometimes they are degreed engineers, at a minimum they are experienced technicians. They typically report to a sales executive or a director of sales engineering. Their job is to translate the customer's requirements into a product or solution that the company can deliver. Sometimes they are called applications engineers. I for one am happy when I can get one, because it means I don't have to spend a lot of time translating what I want into salesmen-speak.
    HatterasguyRich_49rick in Alaska
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,615
    Heh. I've followed behind injuhneers who can cut & paste from a previous, similarish, job & look you in the eye and tell you that it's unpossible for the plans to not do something that's similar to what the customer wants, only not so concise and in a way that is personally insulting.

    I also know TFC, our salescritter, who will give the customer whatever it takes to make the sale. No matter how much it will cost us, & volunteer everyone she can to stand in front of the bus.

    I'm starting to think that the chance of me being just the slightest tiniest bit cynical is moving closer to the realm of possibility. :/

  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,615
    I intend on earning my curmudgeon badge before I'm 50. Now get off my lawn. (<-Meme from a different site, but too good to waste!)
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited August 2016
    I think they are referring to boilers in the category of 1,000,000 BTUh or higher guys . Seems the sales guys and reps are reading papers we have read over 2 years ago .

    It is not untrue in those type boilers either , of course it can be designed for but few of us usually get the opportunity to design that system as some drag and drop Mook is usually in line for that money .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • FranklinD
    FranklinD Member Posts: 399
    I always found it interesting that even at manufacturer-sponsored dealerships, the mechanics & technicians (I'm sure you folks all know the difference between the two just as well as I do) were all paid based on commission. No wonder no one trusts us.

    It took me 13 years to find a job (around here) that paid a decent straight salary and benefits. I absolutely despised trying to up-sell things to customers just to make my hours for the week. And man oh man did I meet some characters during that time...some of whom, given your answers to my previous question, truly were 'sales engineers'.

    In regards to cynicism: I am easily 20 times as cynical now as I was 10 years ago. In another 10 years I'll be the guy to avoid at family gatherings and barbecues.

    I'm just going to let my cast iron boiler live its life, and when it finally dies, I'm hoping that all modcons will have evolved to include fully integrated circulator speed controls, 10:1 turndowns, and oxygen sensors in the flue.

    Then again, if I find the right sales engineer, I'm sure they can tell me their product already has all that stuff, and for cheaper than anyone else. Ha.
    Ford Master Technician, "Tinkerer of Terror"
    Police & Fire Equipment Lead Mechanic, NW WI
    Lover of Old Homes & Gravity Hot Water Systems
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    Now with everybody scrambling for a buck because of all the "right sizing" you do have to parse any salesman's pitch carefully.

    When i was listening to their pitch there was a lot more money around so the "sell" was lighter. I used to regularly talk to sales and application engineers when we had a problem with their components or we simply needed more information. I never got the feeling they were trying to sell me anything unless it was a very expensive piece of test equipment. I was working for a small company so there was seldom any serious money involved, maybe that steered the real sharks elsewhere.

    Since I retired I enjoy sitting on the front porch and throwing the empty beer bottles at passersby - It's easier than returning them.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    ratioHatterasguyHarvey RamerCanucker
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,022
    Many of the rep firms have degreed engineers on board, or the owners are. There are plenty great ones that know their products and try to help the customer.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    delta T
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,615
    BobC said:

    Since I retired I enjoy sitting on the front porch and throwing the empty beer bottles at passersby - It's easier than returning them.
    Bob

    @BobC, now I know what retirement is for! I'm going to enjoy it more than I ever thought possible.

    Thanks!

  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356

    Salesmen are well known to promise the world and let the company figure out how to deliver it. It is up to management to reign them in so the company doesn't lose money.

    After a year or so of dealing with irate customers at my first job out of college (they were regularly promised things the equipment could never do) I decided I had to do something about it. We had just hired three new people and our business cards were laid out four up for the printer. I had the typesetter make up the fourth card on the sheet with my name and "Apologizes for Salesmen" as my job title. The GM was not happy, but he did allocate five minutes at the weekly sales meetings for educating the salescritters.
    Rich_49CLamb
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,615
    Nice. Most of my problems can be fixed by giving the customer better/more controls & materials--i haven't yet been stumped on how to make it do what they were promised. The are a few in the pipeline though, that might require flying completely new & appropriately sized & configured units. (NB: never remove a must-have-no-matter-what during a scope-reduction session!)

    I've been asking for cards that said "I might be slow, but I'm not cheap!" under my name. No reason to not lay it out plain. ;)

  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    edited August 2016
    On one of my first jobs, we (servicemen) had meetings with the bosses every Monday morning before we hit the streets.

    Invariably, it would be a review of our service tickets and the criticism that we weren't selling enough replacement parts. I was in my early 20's so they thought they could pound on and intimidate me the most but it never worked. My answer was always I'm not selling contactors or start kits on AC's that don't need them. Week after week, month after month, year after year, I put up with that as their faces turned red with anger but I didn't care. I didn't get many call backs at all and the customers liked me. Maybe that's why I've been self employed so long.

    If I was that way with bosses who were 20-30 years older than me, I could only imagine how I'd be with bosses 20-30 years younger than me.

    Steve Minnich
    SWEIRich_49Gordy
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    Ever since I was in the army I never had a problem telling the boss that I would do the job as I saw fit. A few lieutenants had a problem with that but the majors and colonels were just fine with it as long as everything worked. I may have been young but I knew electronics a lot better than any of them did.

    After working for decades as an engineer I hid in the post office repairing their sorting machines while waiting to retire. A couple of their managers thought they could tell me how to repair things, they didn't get very far. The incompetent managers (of whom there were many) hated me the good managers told me to do whatever I thought best. By then I was in my 50's and not about to take any **** from anybody.

    Now I'm content to chuck empties at the neighbors kids.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    GordyHatterasguySolid_Fuel_Man
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Rich is right about boiler sizes they are likley referring to. Plus the article does not even touch on the use of an ODR control strategy which would reduce SWT.

    Apparently these condensing boilers they are referring to should not need a condensate removal system since condensing all a fallacy.