emme controls

Bob Bona_4

So, doing up a proposal on a residential reno. Architect spec'd Emme for the hvac controls. Pneumatic bladders in every supply takeoff. Room by room thermostats and a main interface. Makes Nest look like your grampaws T87 gold. Anyone have the pleasure of dealing with this yet?

SWEI

Had to go look that one up. Who would have thought that pneumatics would make a comeback?
http://www.getemme.com/how-it-works/

Bob Bona_4

Right Kurt? Back from the dead, guest appearance, gone tomorrow. That's my initial curmudgeonly opinion

ratio

Long term availability seems suspect. I'd imagine if you can avoid early failure it'll last until you can't get parts for it any more.

Perhaps a note to the architect is in order laying out your concerns & a financially based description of a replacement system if it were to fail.

hot_rod

i know a shop out in Colorado that has been using that system fro a few years now if you need a contact.

ratio

That in itself is promising. Can you describe the system a little, size-wise?

Bob Bona_4

Agreed ratio, I'll take that info Bob, thanks. Will post more details once I get the pdf later. Heard it's to go on an existing system. This ought to be good.

hot_rod

Bob Bona said:

Agreed ratio, I'll take that info Bob, thanks. Will post more details once I get the pdf later. Heard it's to go on an existing system. This ought to be good.

sent a PM, let me know, they don't always make it through.

Bob Bona_4

Thanks, I'll check. Made contact with tech right here in CT, Bristol, too.

ratio

BTW, in one of the case studies, they decommissioned a hydronic system...

Steamhead

ratio said:

BTW, in one of the case studies, they decommissioned a hydronic system...

You can't fix stupid.

ratio

Seems like the system is designed to fix poor engineering, a lack of maintenance, and/or under budgeting.

Bob Bona_4

The zoning system, ratio?

ratio

I read the case studies. They read like our usual "compare this new hydronic/forced air/mini split system to the old unmaintained steam system" threads. Granted, they were written by marketing people, but I'm jaded enough to think that their engineers might feel that way too.

I don't know if I'd pick them over what I'm familiar with, but I don't think I'd put up to much of a fight if told to use them either.

ratio

I guess I'd want to look at the bladders first. If they're not stout as Babe the Big Blue Ox, game over. AFAIK there nowhere else to get them from, lockin. The wireless stuff is probably ok, wireless tech & contact mfgr'ing being what it is. They'd have to really cheap out to get that to "unreliable". Lockin, but hopefully they've leveraged existing, decent stuff for that. My guess is that the pneumatic lines run through the supply ducts (might be an uphill battle with the inspectors). They say the bladders "fully deflate", I've got a hard time believing that unless they actually suck the air out as well, but maybe they do.

After all that, they'll still suffer from all the same issues that any zoning system has that doesn't proportionate air & heating/cooling capacity. Plus maintaining batteries in however many devices.

All in all, your looking at possibly easier installation vs will parts be available when it needs repaired in however many years. Everything else is a wash I think.

Bob Bona_4

I see a pressure sensor that hopefully lets some bleed by all over the house if the static skyrockets. As in one 5" to a bath when only it calls on a 4 ton system

nicholas bonham-carter

What happens when enough of these bladders are closed to restrict airflow during the shoulder cooling season--ice berg time.--NBC

ratio

Right. Maybe there's a bypass they don't show on their sales lit?

pecmsg

These guys have been around for years, good product
http://www.arzelzoning.com/

ratio

Ah, I remember looking at them before. I wonder if the dampers are compatible with the bladders that the other guys use.

In any case, I remembered that ACI at least has a pneumatic to analog transducer (-> actuator on standard damper), so there is a repair path for the air side, however expensive it might be.

Bob Bona_4

Talking to rep today, I'll be an expert in no time!

ratio

Let us know how you feel about them, & also how they would stack up against say a TrueZONE system, cost wise. We're always looking for something cheaper.

Bob Bona_4

Yes this will be interesting. Wouldn't touch the trueZone in the past, I'd go out of my way to get EWC, but the new HW dampers aren't bad. At least you can now tell in a second the status. Dislike the loosey goosey motor mounting. I can see the stops wearing out quickly.

ratio

The ARD dampers are unsuitable for anything over about 8" dia, & use a floating actuator & pressure switch for the bypass. After that, they're fairly reliable, the office boys sell them as a poor man's VAV system. Uhg. Once, I even used a TrueZONE panel with a reheat VAV box, interlocked & staged correctly to boot! (First time I've ever seen a set of "scope reduction" drawlings. smh)

I keep trying to get them to use something else, but the TrueZONEs are just so durn cheep.