What type of *valve* is this?

PaulHanley

Hi Folks,

I've done some searching, but haven't found a way to describe this valve that is installed at a junction on my one pipe steam heat system (synonymous?). I have a small leak at the junction, and was going to eliminate this thing, until I pulled it out, and discovered that perhaps it's some sort of pressure reduction valve, and it sits between the supply side that is about to head upstairs, and the return side, The junction that it connects to, is actually shaped to fit this valve.





What do you guys think? Please try to ignore the mess of RTV on the joints, it was biding time during last season. I need to get ahead of it this year though. Just a homeowner looking for some help. So, yes, I know, call a pro, but the quotes I'm getting just to replace this joint are more than I can lay out right now. I really don't want to use the heat pumps in my split systems, but if the steam system just needs to go, then I suppose that's just the way it is in this old home. Thanks for your help!

Regards,
Paul

Steamhead

That's a standard gate valve. They still make them, and a knowledgeable steam guy would have no trouble replacing it.

It doesn't surprise me that some people would say you need to rip the whole steam system out because of this. There are those who will say anything to take your money. Throw them out.

Interesting that you say it's connected between the supply and the return. Can we see some more pics showing this?

Danny Scully

It's a steam gate valve. What do you mean "if the steam system just needs to go"?

JUGHNE

Need more pictures from farther back.
What size is that valve/piping?
Your sure you have only 1 pipe to each radiator and it has it's own vent on the opposite end of the inlet valve?

PaulHanley

Thanks for the fast responses guys. I'll get some additional photos up shortly. To answer two questions:

1. My comment: "if the steam system just needs to go" really meant, If the steam system use has to be suspended until I get the funds together, and until then, I'll use the split systems in my house for heat.

2. Yep, single pipe, vents on opposite side of each radiator. I actually used quite a bit of info on this forum and spent quite a bit of time replacing those vents to re-balance (a bunch of new Gorton vents) the system that the previous owner multilated.

3. I believe the pipe is 1.25" steel.

BTW, I would love to keep this system running if possible. Heck, I'm probably due for a new boiler soon. The pros in the steam field are rapidly diminishing, and a lot of guys just trying to shove radiant heat down my throat. While I'm sure the new systems have their merits, I can't tear the place apart, nor can I afford to financially right now.

That said, I'll check my nearest supply house for this valve, but I have my doubts.

Thanks again for your help folks!

PaulHanley

Ok, let's see if this crude drawing makes sense. Perhaps I have the supply and returns reversed. The return as I have it labeled, attached to the midsection on the boiler, while the supply is coming out of the top.

nicholas bonham-carter

I think that is a gate valve to turn on and off the extra supply, (going to a seldom used room?)
Clean up the threads of the valve bonnet, and reassemble it, repack the packing nut, and you should be good for another 100 years.
What pressure is your system running, and what sort of main venting do you have?--NBC

HEATON

That is a plain old gate valve and does not need to be there! I fact it causes a restriction of flow of condensate. In a one pipe steam sys the supply and return are synonamous. Notice the inordinate amount of rust through at that area? The valve that shouldnt be used anywhere in a one pipe system has caused a condensate trapping and increased rusting through at that point. Cut it out and put a 1 1/4 Fernco in its place and relax with the RTV for walls windows and the like.

Danny Scully

A fernco? That's a joke right?

PaulHanley

Hey guys, I definitely want to keep the system. I do my best to drain it from rust during the season and maintain the associated venting. I couldn't agree more, steam heat is excellent. The system is running at 1.5lbs, and I've been happy with that pressure, until I noticed one bedroom upstairs wasn't getting heat, which is off of this line (one beyond the gate valve) I believe. I've read that this pressure is not only acceptable, but suggested.

Venting is 4" stainless through a stack, and a Gorton #1 on the main.

I didn't realize fernco made threaded caps. Is that what you are referring to? I suppose I just need a cap to block the 1.25" opening, and hope that solves our upstairs problem. If it does, I have a feeling I'm going to need to rebalance again, but will be worth it IMO.

So, yank it and find a plug, or literally cut it out and place a fernco over the remaining threads?

BobC

For the radiator that isn't working check all the horizontal piping and the radiator itself to be sure it slopes back towards the boiler, old houses settle and things might have gone out of pitch. Dis you find pooled water when you took that valve apart? Make sure the air vent on that radiator is clear. You might need faster venting on this one or slower venting on everything else. You could just remove the vent on this radiator and see if that allows it to get steam before trying different sized vents, just make sure someone is ready to shut the boiler off if steams starts to pour out of the open vent tapping.

If that doesn't work try lifting the whole radiator up 1/2 to 3/4" with plywood shims to correct for any horizontal run inside a ceiling. And finally there is a chance the radiator valve is broken and the flap that closes it off has come loose and it laying over the pipe the stem comes up through.

Bob

Jamie Hall

That gate valve -- which, I quite agree, shouldn't be there at all! -- was used to cut off the steam to that pipe you have labelled as going upstairs.

If you want to be able to run steam up there, there are a number of ways to go. Some are slicker and quicker than others... the very simplest possible thing to do is, as has been suggested, to tidy that valve up, make sure that it is wide open, and screw the bonnet back on the valve body. Make sure the gate is fully withdrawn or, better yet, take the gate out completely. If you don't want heat in that upstairs radiator, close the vent. Another way to go is, as has been suggested, take the valve body out completely -- and since there are no unions, you will have to cut one of the nipples (the longer one) right next to the valve body. Then you could use a Fernco coupling. That should work. If you want a really elegant job, though, you could stick a union in there in place of the valve body. Me? I'd go with the Fernco...

If you don't want to be able to run steam up there, you could cut the valve out and cap the nipple from the main...

PaulHanley

Yep, definitely got a good pitch on the rad return, and since I just pulled that valve almost 8 months after I shut the system down for the season, there was no pooled water under it. All the vents were recently replaced, and there is a new vent on the rad in question.

It's very possible that the valve needs to be repaired/replaced on the rad, haven't pulled it, though I'm hoping that's a last resort given the difficult spot that it's encased in (in wall). Replacing the vent on the darn thing was tough enough!

The primary issue is the leaking at this junction, secondary being steam to the radiator. So, I'd love to ensure that I should leave this gate valve in place, or yank it and find a cap or bridge it with a fernco or similar. Thanks again guys!

Steamhead

Remove the gate valve. Replace it with the proper pipe nipples and fittings. Done and done.

There are plenty of steam guys on the Find a Contractor page of this site who can handle this if it's more than you can handle.

PaulHanley

This has all been great info. Before I do any of this, I have some additional sleuthing to do. While I have been unable to locate another riser that would lead to that radiator, I suppose that this doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Perhaps that gate valve was indeed placed in there to cut off that riser. So, I believe I have all my option laid out here, you guys have truly been a life saver. Once I implement the final solution, I'll keep everyone apprised.

Of course, if anyone has additional suggestion, I still truly appreciate them.

Thanks again,
Paul

JUGHNE

Fernco?? Rubber Fernco on steam piping?? Did I miss something or is this now a new solution?

Where was this leaking at near the valve in question?

I'm with Jamie that you could remove the gate from the drive screw that it is on......just make sure the stem can not be unscrewed out of the valve with it off. If you do this and repack the bonnet nut around the stem be careful to not overtighten the nut and crack it.

PaulHanley

Thanks guys. I think that last option which Jamie originally suggested and JUGHNE reinforced is the way I'm going to go. If it works, then I'll have the whole damned assembly replaced.

Unfortunately, for a 12" span of threaded pipe, most contractors find the job too small, so they make the job larger than it needs to be in order to justify it.

We shall see, thanks!

Danny Scully

Where are you located @PaulHanley?

ChrisJ

Sawzall the nipples on each side of the gate valve leaving a little bit of it sticking out of the fitting on each side. Cut a slit into the nipple lengthwise and then fold it in on it self using a hammer and a cold chisel. The nipples will spin right out of the fittings on each side. Do not let the saw or chisel go anywhere near the female threads of the fittings you're keeping. If you damage them, you need to move to the next good fitting and start over.

Then replace with 2 nipples of appropriate lengths and a union.

Leave the Ferncos out of steam systems.

I'm only a homeowner, but I could have that knocked out and replaced in an hour tops. Probably 15 minutes to knock the valve and nipples out.

ChrisJ

Actually,

An alternate way if you damage a fitting is to grind into the fitting and use a chisel to crack it and then spin it off of the pipe leaving good male threads. Again, you want to stay away from the threads you're trying to save. Use your chisel on the other end of the fitting.

I did this to change the length of a pipe to one of my radiators but it's harder and more time consuming than the previous way.

If you look close, you can see the hairline crack running down the groove.




And that gives you this. Nice, clean usable 90+ year old male threads to spin a new fitting onto.

PaulHanley

Danny Scully said:

Where are you located @PaulHanley?

West Caldwell, NJ

PaulHanley

Chris, that's good stuff right there, thanks for the photos. What's hilarious about those pics, is that they look just like my darn basement.

BTW, my concern about hitting this with a sawzall would be the ability to isolate the massive vibration caused by it, from the remaining joints in the system. Some of which are concealed. I have a pretty decent oscillating tool, and some Bosch carbide blades that slice through most metal (including a few 3/8" galv bolts that I recently cut out) very well. Has anyone had success using one for this type of application? The main concern there would be a consistent, flat cut across the entire circumference I suppose.

nicholas bonham-carter

My advice would be to clean up the bonnet threads, remove the gates of the valve, reassemble, repack, and leave it in place.
If you wanted a valve there to cut off that supply, the gate valve with its stem mounted horizontally, would be the right choice. It is full diameter, so no problem with trapped water causing hammer.
Still you have plenty of time before the snow flies to have an adventure!--NBC

ChrisJ

PaulHanley said:

Chris, that's good stuff right there, thanks for the photos. What's hilarious about those pics, is that they look just like my darn basement.

BTW, my concern about hitting this with a sawzall would be the ability to isolate the massive vibration caused by it, from the remaining joints in the system. Some of which are concealed. I have a pretty decent oscillating tool, and some Bosch carbide blades that slice through most metal (including a few 3/8" galv bolts that I recently cut out) very well. Has anyone had success using one for this type of application? The main concern there would be a consistent, flat cut across the entire circumference I suppose.

I don't know what to say really.
If vibration is going to cause any of the joints to leak, there's something really wrong and they should be taken care of.

We did a good amount of cutting on my system and it's no different than yours, the entire house heard the noise, and then some. Combined with me pounding on unions to bust them apart and then banging on the cold chisel to crush the threaded pipe out of the threads of the fittings I was saving.


Have a look at the photos found at the link of the ends of my messages. My system had plenty of things disturbed and threaded joints leaking never concerned me any.

Sailah

If you're concerned about vibrations disrupting the remaining piping a cutoff wheel in a 4.5" angle grinder would be through that pipe in less time than it took me to type this. MAPP torch on the female joints, pipe wrench on what is left of the nipple, back it right out. That's how I'd remove that valve.

Full face shield highly recommended along with safety glasses.

ChrisJ

Sailah said:

If you're concerned about vibrations disrupting the remaining piping a cutoff wheel in a 4.5" angle grinder would be through that pipe in less time than it took me to type this. MAPP torch on the female joints, pipe wrench on what is left of the nipple, back it right out. That's how I'd remove that valve.

Full face shield highly recommended along with safety glasses.

And ear protection for both the grinder and sawzall!

PaulHanley

LOL, thanks guys, I'm set with all of the above tools and protection. Great suggestions, thank you!

Edit: That is, *if* I cut it out altogether.

Fred

I have cut pipe out of a fitting several times. I usually make two cuts, about a quarter inch apart and then take a center punch and knock that wedge out. It pops right out and the remainder of the pipe can be hand screwed right out. If you are nervous about vibration (which there really isn't that much) I have used a small hand hack saw like the one in this link. Takes a little longer but far less likely to go too far, too fast.
http://www.toolup.com/Milwaukee-48-22-0012-Compact-Hack-Saw-10-Inch

ChrisJ

Fred said:

I have cut pipe out of a fitting several times. I usually make two cuts, about a quarter inch apart and then take a center punch and knock that wedge out. It pops right out and the remainder of the pipe can be hand screwed right out. If you are nervous about vibration (which there really isn't that much) I have used a small hand hack saw like the one in this link. Takes a little longer but far less likely to go too far, too fast.
http://www.toolup.com/Milwaukee-48-22-0012-Compact-Hack-Saw-10-Inch

So far, all of the ones I've done I didn't make any cuts in the pipe other than cutting it off about 1/2" from the fitting. The rest was done with the cold chisel and hammer.

PaulHanley

Ok, so here's the plan. After measuring the thread, I think this is 1.5" pipe. I'm going to pick up a 6" threaded pipe and add a cap to one end. Then thread the other end into the existing gate valve opening, and run the system. If all goes well, I'll slice out the entire junction, reuse that 6" threaded pipe and add a union, then call it a day.

Sane?

ChrisJ

PaulHanley said:

Ok, so here's the plan. After measuring the thread, I think this is 1.5" pipe. I'm going to pick up a 6" threaded pipe and add a cap to one end. Then thread the other end into the existing gate valve opening, and run the system. If all goes well, I'll slice out the entire junction, reuse that 6" threaded pipe and add a union, then call it a day.

Sane?

Not sure I follow.
Measure the outside diameter of the pipe.

1 1/4" pipe is just over 1.5" thick on the outside, @ 1.66".
1 1/2" pipe is just under 2", @ 1.9"

Cut both out, get the female threads of each fitting cleaned up and give us an exact measurement from fitting to fitting.

You're going to need to squeeze a union in there so it may be difficult to get a pipe cut that small if need be. Most shops just don't seem to be capable these days but some are if they have the right jig.

You're probably going to want a good Ward union and a close nipple one one side and then measure for the other side. You could get lucky though and two off the shelf nipples will make it. Thing is, you're in a tight spot and you need this to work out extremely close. If it doesn't, you'll likely end up with expansion noises when the system heats and cools from a pipe rubbing somewhere.

First step is bust the mess out of there and get it cleaned up in my opinion.

Fred

It really isn't that tough of a job, once you get past your apprehension. It looks like you have plenty of room to work. It also looks like you have a good amount of silicon on that elbow to the right. Did it leak there as well? If so, do the complete job and be done with it. Just take your time, it will be fine. The most difficult part of that job is biting the bullet and starting. Once you make your first cut, you know you have to finish it.

PaulHanley

Yep, agree with the assessments. My apprehension is over the location of the pipe. I have doubts about the purpose of that gate valve. While I'm confident it leads to a single radiator on the 2nd floor, I have no way of verifying this without ripping walls open. Therefore, if I just replace the assembly, I won't have a quick method of reinserting the gate valve if it was really there to block off a decommissioned riser. Of course, if that was really the purpose, then I need to find the imbecile who put it there and strangle them, because they should have simply disconnected the riser altogether.

However, I've come across even more idiotic decisions in this house over the past few years that needed to be cleaned up.

Fred

I'm sure you can find a gate value with union type connectors and close nipples at a plumbing supply house if you want/need to. A straight radiator valve will probably even work. Put a regular close nipple on one end, into that 45 fitting and then the matched nipple that comes with the radiator valve into that 90.

Fred

Check this one out. It's 1.25 but they make 1.5" too.
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Matco-Norca-SGV-1251-1-1-4-FIP-x-Male-Union-Steam-Radiator-Gate-Valve-4636000-p

PaulHanley

Good tip! Mixing metals though, a problem? Steel/brass?

Edit: Nevermind. I just realized the valve I pulled must be brass.

Fred

No problem mixing brass with steel. That's what's on all of your rads.

nicholas bonham-carter

Make sure the output pipe is well supported, before you cut this loose.
I would still advise leaving the valve in place until you know it is causing a problem. Just open the gates, and put everything back together, with cleaned up threads, and new packing.
Save your time and money for a good low pressure gauge, calibrated in ounces.--NBC

PaulHanley

Quick update folks. I found another lead off of the return pipe, and I believe that is the pipe that leads to the chilly 2nd bedroom. It's a little baffling that one would place a supply on a return, but perhaps that's the problem. The pipe that was being cut off partially by the gate valve actually leads to the dining room, but connects under a cabinet in the kitchen. The dining room is where the thermostat is.

So, the new question is, should I cut that pipe from the 2nd bedroom and reattach it to the supply side, perhaps by adding a T off of the pipe that was leading to the dining room?

nicholas bonham-carter

The dry return can have a takeoff or two. The chilly radiator is probably getting steam last, and slowly because of inadequate main venting.
If the main vents are working and sized properly, the whole pipe from header to main vent on the dry return will fill with steam, before any of the take offs begin to fill. When the main vents have closed, then the back pressure (even a couple of ounces) will push the steam up towards the radiators. This will cause each radiator to receive steam simultaneously.
Try a big mouth vent from "sailah".--NBC

Fred

I think you said you have a one pipe system. The main is a steam main until after the last radiator run-out. After that last radiator run, it becomes your dry return. Make sure you have good venting somewhere after that last radiator run and you should be fine. Of course, if you are feeding two radiators off of a single radiator run-out, you want to make sure that run is large enough to fill both radiators, otherwise the radiator with the "path of least resistance" , probably the closest radiator on that run-out will steal all/most of the steam.