New boiler install. Was it done right?

peppy690

Hello. Just had an ibc dc 20-125 combi installed. There are three zones for heat and 1 is a Monoflow. I am worried about three things and would like your advice on them before I contact the installer. Attached is a picture of the install.
My concerns originate from reading through the installation manual located here:

http://ibcboiler.com/wp-content/themes/ibc/pdf/DC_Series_Installation.pdf

1. There isn't the 18" drop for the thermal trap, since the zones are above the boiler. This is on pg 28

2. The zone valves and circulator are on the pumping toward the boiler on the return side. And therefore the flow is hitting the supply connection on the boiler first, then the return connection.
I believe from what I see in the manual that the circulator and zone valves should all be flipped to make that the supply side.

3. Currently the condensate is being pumped out of my house near the boiler vents. I'm worried that the acidic nature of the condensate is too close to my foundation. Should they still put an acid neutralizer in even though it's not going into a drain line and going outside?

If my suspicions are correct then the installer needs to come back and flip the pump and the zone valves around to make the left side the supply. And put a neutralizer in. Not sure on the 18" thermal trap thing.
It will also fix the monoflow zone not working. He was going to come back and pipe it to flip return and supply.

Thank you all for your help.

kcopp

Looks like to me it piped "ok". There is the circulator in the boiler and the EZ piping manifold in in place. The supply is on the LH side of the boiler. A tee on the suction side of the circulator for the extrol tank would be better.A Spirovent would be a better choice instead on the air scoop especially w/ the amount of room left before it. Should have 18" of straight pipe.
Don't worry about the "thermal trap" set up... not really needed.
The condensate will be fine. I have never seen that damage a foundation. The amount of snow and rain should dilute it fine.

Paul48

The secondary circ is backwards. You are correct. The expansion tank is in the wrong place, for a properly pumping secondary circ. As stated......the scoop is useless, as plumbed. Even without knowing what circ you have on the secondary side, I question whether it will support a monoflow zone in addition to your other zones, one of which appears to be pex.

Ironman

The arrangement between the p/s is wrong (as pointed out). The way it is now, the boiler's supply will be short-circuited back into its return. The flow in the house loop should be from right to left, instead left to right, as it now is.

Though the pump on the house loop is correctly pumping away from the PONPC, it is incorrectly pumping against the boiler pump (head to head) as it injects into the Tee. The house pump should be moved, along with the expansion tank and air separator, down stream of the boiler, not upstream.

Your installer may not fully grasp all of the details of p/s piping. Most don't' and this site would be a great place for him to get help if he wants it. He's probably not going to be happy about our critique of his work, though.

peppy690

Thank you all. @Hatterasguy yea I think he was aiming for everything to be on the return. In light of the monoflow being backwards it might just be better for him to flip everything around? Especially since the manual and all primary and secondary piping suggests the circ to be on the supply side.

@Paul48 Can you shed some light on the size of the circ pump in regards to the monoflow? At first I questioned the use of zone valves instead of circs. Makes sense that the monoflow would need a stronger pump to get through the piping. How would I find out if it's enough?

@Ironman from what I understand is if i have him turn the zone valves around, the air eliminator around, and the circ around, the expansion tank would be in the wrong place. It would have to be before the circulator ( between the supply from the boiler and the circ). Is this correct?

Paul48

It can be done, but it requires a fairly substantial circ. Monoflow is a different animal, altogether. It requires more flow against head than say a baseboard series loop. There are tables for calculating head and required flow, just for monoflow, but they are beyond me. If you use a circ that is capable, and use circuit setters, it can be done. What circ does he have on there, for the secondary side?

gennady

Condensate must discharge through vented trap and acid neutralizer into house sewer system. There 2 reasons for that.
1. condensate will freeze and create ice plug. you will have flooded firing chamber and potentially damaged boiler at the below zero temperature.
2. Plumbing code does not allow to plumb waste directly to the outside from the inside of the house.

Ironman said:

Though the pump on the house loop is correctly pumping away from the PONPC, it is incorrectly pumping against the boiler pump (head to head) as it injects into the Tee.

Boiler has integral pump, and system connects to boiler with twin tees. No head to head pumping here the way I see from photo.

You have zone valves, so no thermal loop or gravity flow stops needed.
Another consideration is that zoning does not work with outdoor reset system if you did set it up, but this is different topic.

Scoop must have at least 18" of straight pipe before and after, and must be located, along with expansion tank and feed line, at hottest point of the system (on the boiler outlet) and lowest pressure point (before system pump suction). If there is no room available, then go spirovent or similar.

Expansion tank must be supported via wall bracket,
I see no vent pipe support anywhere in the photo.
There are some other issues as well.

rickh

There are quite a few issues in all. IBC doesn't allow PVC on exhaust and I don't see any relief valve on the domestic either.

Paul48

@Hatterasguy

Can you explain why..........we've seen many folks here, that have replaced a series 100 circ on a monoflow system, with a 007, and it won't work? Comparing the 2 curves, it would seem to suggest the monoflow needs greater flow. I know it's an open-ended question, and there are variables, but we see it a lot.

Ironman

Digesting this would help greatly:

http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_19_na.pdf

Paul48

Why don't manufacturers provide equivalent lengths for diverter tees? Look at page 20 in that idronics..........How would you select a circ for a monoflow system that uses TRVs? Wouldn't the TRVs "modulating" drive the head up? Similar to capping a diverter tee?

Ironman

Paul48 said:

Why don't manufacturers provide equivalent lengths for diverter tees? Look at page 20 in that idronics..........How would you select a circ for a monoflow system that uses TRVs? Wouldn't the TRVs "modulating" drive the head up? Similar to capping a diverter tee?

I'd use a delta P circ for that application.

JUGHNE

Gennady has correct points concerning your condensate discharge, however if the pump discharge freezes into a plug outside, your pump will simply overflow and pee on your floor. Hopefully you find it before there is too much of a mess. It looks as if your boiler condensate hose just runs into the cond pump. That is your air gap for the boiler drain, if the pump should fail for whatever reason.

I have run pump output to the outdoors in northern Nebraska. The pump tubing comes from above and will shoot outside at a fairly severe angle....been good for at least 10 years. The secret is to get the tubing to drain out quickly and not dribble for minutes and allow a freeze up.
What climate are you in???? that makes a lot of difference for that drain issue.

I would have taken that discharge tubing up as high as possible with a loop up into the floor joist area and then slope to the outside wall. You want your discharge to drain to the outside and not have the entire hose sit with water in it. I used an increaser from the 3/8 tubing to 3/4" pvc thru the wall, all of this sloped to drain.
The acidic condensate will etch concrete if not diluted. If you can shoot this out onto the ground then maybe a little weed/grass kill would be the only victim. It won't burn thru your foundation in one year. Etching or staining at most.

I have used my homemade acid neutralizer draining into a cond pump. The discharge tubing might go into a basement laundry sink, I put a piece of 3/8" copper tubing into the end of the plastic tubing........if acid is being passed it will corrode the copper within a year......same with a brass garden hose end.
The canary in the coal mine warning.

peppy690

The circ is the attached picture. As someone was wondering earlier.

Also the monoflow is on 1" pipe and that is going to 4 in wall convectors and 1 small baseboard on my second floor.

I am now worried about the circulator being right for the job. I've been reading @Ironman linked guide and a variable speed circulator that can vari the flow rate based off of a set delta t and/or how many zones are calling at a time would be the best choice. I doubt that is what I have.

Thank you all for your advice and feedback. The installer seems very receptive to my concerns and wants to make it right. I'll point him to this thread.

JUGHNE

You are most fortunate that your installer has a good attitude towards the project to be open minded to advice.
He would be more fortunate to follow this website.

Just look at how much advice was given.....different approaches and one can judge which applies for the best installation.

jonny88

One more thing to add,the vent should not be pvc.CPVC or PP would be advised.

Zman

Getting him to admit that the whole thing is wrong is going to be an uphill battle.

The way I look at it, you have a couple felonies and a whole lot of misdemeanors.

The crossed primary secondary is absolutely wrong. The monoflow piping may be as well. In many climates the condensate pipe will freeze leaving you a wet floor.

Many of the other defects you have are not quite right but are so common in the industry it may or may not be worth the battle.
There is no harm in reviewing the whole system, just don't expect it to look exactly like the manual.

Bob Bona_4

I do the same thing Re condensate if ejected to exterior , run tubing high then sharp pitch thru foundation or rim joist or other. I use a section of 3/4 Fostapex PAP as a sleeve thru the wall to stick the 3/8 vinyl tubing into. Stop the vinyl a few inches short of the Fostapex term.

We neutralize before pump. But, we have a relief opening piped in before the neutralizer to alert someone when and if the neutralizer clogs. The relief is open to floor or someplace it can be seen.

NY_Rob

Don't see any kind of strainer in the space heating loop?

Don's see any near boiler supports on exhaust or intake pipes?

If going with a variable speed CH pump due to use of zone valves, it would be a delta P not delta T pump. Delta P would maintain constant gpm flow as zones open and close.

I would imagine an inspector would have an issue with the condensation pump sitting on top of a cement block?

Paul48

Maybe..........After you told him what it is.

Paul48

@Ironman @SWEI

"I'd use a delta P circ for that application".

OK..........Now, all your TRVs are calling for 25% flow.......How does them closing affect the head? Will you deadhead the deltaP circ, when rooms still require heat?

SWEI

As the TRVs close, the circ slows down. The result is that the TRV has a reasonable operating range and its closing/opening does not affect the rate of flow through other TRVs. If all the TRVs close and the stat is still calling for heat, the pump will go into idle mode and wait for a valve to open.

Paul48

@SWEI

Now add the diverter tee's to the equation. The pump slows down, and you still have other rooms that need more heat. The tee's require the flow that just went away. How do you figure the required head for a monoflow system with TRV's?

peppy690

Not going to be using trv's. However with the recommendation of @NY_Rob to use a delta p instead of delta t circ, I want to ensure the boiler condenses as much as possible to obtain the high efficiency. So wouldn't a delta t circ be better to ensure I get the low enough return temps?

Or do I just keep the circ that's on there now and hope for the best once I start heating?

How does the outdoor reset play into what I'm considering?

After those questions I think I'll be all set with how to proceed


Thank you all again for all of your knowledge and help.

NY_Rob

Read through this thread regarding issues using a DT pump on the UFT-80W... it's long but very informative:
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/157589/taco-vt2218/p1

Below is a good qoute from the linked thread...

SWEI said:

When we bolt a ΔT circ to a mod/con, we have in effect created a car with two accelerator pedals and two drivers. How likely is that car to deliver a smooth ride over changing terrain?

The DP pump idea is very straight forward- it will try to maintain a set flow rate regardless if one, two, or all three zones are operating- and it leaves temperature control chores to the boiler... in effect "one driver".

gennady

Though

Paul48 said:

@SWEI

Now add the diverter tee's to the equation. The pump slows down, and you still have other rooms that need more heat. The tee's require the flow that just went away. How do you figure the required head for a monoflow system with TRV's?

I think nothing would change. dP pumps can be set set for constant pressure application, so pump will maintain set point pressure regardless changes of flow.

Paul48

Do TRV's close completely when satisfied?

SWEI

Yes, but... If you set your reset curve even moderately well, they should modulate mostly in the middle of their ranges.

peppy690

Any dp pump recommendations ?

Ironman

Grundfos Alpha or Taco Varidian 1816.

To clarify the above referenced thread: the issue was about using a delta T circ to pump directly through the boiler, not about using it on a secondary loop which is what it's designed to do.

Ironman

Hatterasguy said:

Ironman said:

Grundfos Alpha or Taco Varidian 1816.

To clarify the above referenced thread: the issue was about using a delta T circ to pump directly through the boiler, not about using it on a secondary loop which is what it's designed to do.

Do you have any info or data from Taco that suggests or confirms that the pump is only designed to work on a P/S system on the secondary side? I've not seen anything and am curious if Taco actually takes that position or is it just anecdotal observation for which I can fully agree.

No data. And obviously from observation, including your experience trying it. Nor was that an absolute statement: it would probably work pumping through a boiler that doesn't modulate if cold return wasn't an issue. I was trying to put it more in the context of the OP's questions.

NY_Rob

Here's the Performance Curve chart for the Grundfos Alpha DP pump..

Ironman

Hatterasguy said:

Ironman said:

Hatterasguy said:

Ironman said:

Grundfos Alpha or Taco Varidian 1816.

To clarify the above referenced thread: the issue was about using a delta T circ to pump directly through the boiler, not about using it on a secondary loop which is what it's designed to do.

Do you have any info or data from Taco that suggests or confirms that the pump is only designed to work on a P/S system on the secondary side? I've not seen anything and am curious if Taco actually takes that position or is it just anecdotal observation for which I can fully agree.

No data. And obviously from observation, including your experience trying it. Nor was that an absolute statement: it would probably work pumping through a boiler that doesn't modulate if cold return wasn't an issue. I was trying to put it more in the context of the OP's questions.

Thanks.

It would certainly work fine on a boiler that doesn't modulate. And it also works fine on any of its fixed speeds, thereby achieving the energy efficiency of the ECM pump.

Of course it also works fine on the secondary side of a p/s system, but with a fixed speed primary pump, you have wasted all your money buying the DT pump that doesn't give you the efficiency that you seek. Might as well have used a fixed speed pump (unless the ECM efficiency is important).

It would be nice to see more manufacturers offer it where the boiler could control the pump.

peppy690

So what I am gathering overall is that the circulator I have in currently will not work well with the circumstances of the zone valves with two zones being plumbed differently, along with the mod con boiler? And as a result I should go with one of the dp circs suggested?

Also, I know it was mentioned above that everything could be left the way it was and just switch the return and supply pipes from the boiler, this would make the circ and valves on the return side. I know from reading everywhere the circ and valves and tank should be on the supply side. What are the disasvantages of having the circ and all on the return side?

You guys are awesome!