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Gov't intervention in boiler selection

2

Comments

  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    Remember that the condensing gas furnaces are rated AFUE 90+.

    Add to that the fact that most need a communicating system mated user interface ( the customer thinks it's a thermostat) to reach full potential and a lot of contractors don't install them, they use standard thermostats that greatly reduce these units efficiencies and disable the variable speed function.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567
    edited June 2016
    GreenGene said:

    I've noticed a lot of the gas vs oil calculators originate from gas companies and the excel program seems a little skewed.

    Wish I could find that old data, last time I got oil I paid $1.60, it blows gas out of the water, checking their conversion excel programs shows they have oil set at $3 or higher, the oil equipment at very low eff and the gas at very high. If I refactor the program properly they come out close to even, hmm.

    Fact is if you're going to convert it's going to take 8-20 years to pay you back, THEN you start saving.

    With oil you can always get heat with any diesel based fluid, even veggie oil if needed, with gas?

    If the unit is due for replacement they'd have to spend the money anyway so if they were on the line it could be justified but to do it just to save money isn't realistic because you aren't going to for years.

    I spend around $1800 in gas per year, for heat, water, clothes dryer, gas grill.

    My neighbor, similar sized house and construction, was spending a little over $5000 a year in oil. He owned a duplex, one side hot water, one side steam, both were similar in consumption and he kept his temp at 65F, mine is at 72F. This was back when oil was around $3.20-3.50 a gallon.

    No, oil doesn't blow gas out of the water. EVER.
    No, the calculators aren't skewed.

    "With oil you can always get heat with any diesel based fluid, even veggie oil if needed, with gas?" Well.................since I never run out................not sure how to respond to this? I suppose in an absolute emergency where somehow, there is no natural gas, I'd use my oil filled electric radiators. Same thing I've done in the past if something were to fail.

    That said, I've been considering converting my gasoline generator to NG because the chances of NG being lost vs everything else is very, very slim.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    edited June 2016
    and I have a 2003 Sanyo 31 tube tv that draws 89 watts

    I have a larger flat screen think it's 42", hmm, it has a rating on the back of 3 amps

    Pf x V x A = W no? est 320 watts

    BUT old tvs do use more power when idle than the new ones
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Older LCDs had CCF backlights that drew much more power (and they fade as they age.) Newer designs are based almost exclusively on LED backlights which draw a LOT less power.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567
    32" led back-lit LCD smart TV power consumption 27.95w
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,466
    ChrisJ said:

    GreenGene said:

    I've noticed a lot of the gas vs oil calculators originate from gas companies and the excel program seems a little skewed.

    Wish I could find that old data, last time I got oil I paid $1.60, it blows gas out of the water, checking their conversion excel programs shows they have oil set at $3 or higher, the oil equipment at very low eff and the gas at very high. If I refactor the program properly they come out close to even, hmm.

    Fact is if you're going to convert it's going to take 8-20 years to pay you back, THEN you start saving.

    With oil you can always get heat with any diesel based fluid, even veggie oil if needed, with gas?

    If the unit is due for replacement they'd have to spend the money anyway so if they were on the line it could be justified but to do it just to save money isn't realistic because you aren't going to for years.

    I spend around $1800 in gas per year, for heat, water, clothes dryer, gas grill.

    My neighbor, similar sized house and construction, was spending a little over $5000 a year in oil. He owned a duplex, one side hot water, one side steam, both were similar in consumption and he kept his temp at 65F, mine is at 72F. This was back when oil was around $3.20-3.50 a gallon.

    No, oil doesn't blow gas out of the water. EVER.
    No, the calculators aren't skewed.

    "With oil you can always get heat with any diesel based fluid, even veggie oil if needed, with gas?" Well.................since I never run out................not sure how to respond to this? I suppose in an absolute emergency where somehow, there is no natural gas, I'd use my oil filled electric radiators. Same thing I've done in the past if something were to fail.

    That said, I've been considering converting my gasoline generator to NG because the chances of NG being lost vs everything else is very, very slim.
    Besides the cost per BTU difference- which varies as prices rise and fall- oil suffers from tank and other leaks, faulty deliveries causing customers to run out of oil and servicing issues such as failure to properly maintain customers' equipment. A lot of people switch to gas to get rid of these issues.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    SWEIRich_49
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,619
    Even without rebates new refrigerators paid for themselves thru energy savings. Going back at least to the nineties. But since then these new efficient refrigerators are to be replaced every ten years or so.
    GreenGene
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    Agree, people should change their refrigerators every 5-10 years.

    We just got a new Samsung with the DIC and a 10 year warranty, the next choice was the LG Linear.

    Amazingly quiet.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Do to tax credits and rebates we see a lot of Areco boilers in schools and other government type buildings.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,326
    null
    I have a 16 month old $3K LG..... and warm beer! :(
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Warm beer is never good in any situation. Lol
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567
    I have an 83 year old GE and it's 32f. ;)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Robert O'BrienRich_49
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,326
    ChrisJ said:

    So rebates and tax credits paid for by the public are OK to sway consumers decision making?

    Why don't you tell us your thoughts on it, Bob?

    :)
    Since you asked, they are good for business but I'm not quite sure why the government and utilities should incentivize certain behavior
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  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,652
    Incentivize? I had to look that up. I thought you were making up words.
    Author - Hard Knocks: My Life Inside Boiler Rooms
    PHC News Columnist
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/minnich-hydronic-consulting-and-design
    jonny88
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567
    No different than any other things going on.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Robert O'Briennjtommy
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,326

    Incentivize? I had to look that up. I thought you were making up words.

    There's plenty, no need to make them up! :)
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  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    You don't need a calculator to figure out the price per therm of oil or gas, Doing so eliminates all "smoke and mirrors". I got sick and tired of being held captive to the whims of some middle eastern sheiks. If you locked in at a fixed price for oil, for the season, you paid higher than everyone else. And, invariably, that would be the season that the price didn't go up. If you rolled the dice and didn't lock in, the price would quadruple by peak heating season. To the sheiks.......Stick your oil where the sun don't shine!
    GreenGene
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,849
    ChrisJ said:



    That said, I've been considering converting my gasoline generator to NG because the chances of NG being lost vs everything else is very, very slim.

    Um. Well. Maybe. Except in New England, the funny thing is that on the very cold days, when you really want to be warm, the gas flow isn't sufficient and the pressure drops, system wide. And sometimes the NG stuff works, and sometimes it doesn't. This isn't going to get fixed anytime soon, either.

    On the other hand, you don't have to worry about plowing the barnyard so the heating truck can get in to fill the tank. The greenies fixed that one, too -- we were forced by the State to remove our 3,000 gallon tank some years back...

    Can't win.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    @Jamie Hall

    I've only heard that coming from the Boston area. I'm sure others will weigh in, but we don't have any problem with gas pressure.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Who needs gas when we got heat pumps lol
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567
    Ah,
    I see @GreenGene is handing out dislikes now.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Robert O'Brien
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567
    @Paul48 I have 50 psi to the meter here so no gas pressure issues ever.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    What else would Robert? Especially if the consumer is informed of the dirty secret about how certain HE products that don't come close to their rated efficiency unless subject to specific conditions sure will not.
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 434

    So rebates and tax credits paid for by the public are OK to sway consumers decision making?

    It always better to use someone else's money especially when sanctioned by the government.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,786
    R Mannino said:

    So rebates and tax credits paid for by the public are OK to sway consumers decision making?

    It always better to use someone else's money especially when sanctioned by the government.
    Like any rebate program, does it benefit the public more than it burdens them.

    Would the advantages of knowing that information, or having access to the funds for example lessen fuel consumption, make more fuel available to customers at a lower cost, assure adequate supplies at high demand, reduce potential spills. eliminate leaking oil tanks. If so I would vote in favor of the program, although i would like to see all the details, and where the funding was coming from, like lottery ticket sales? :)

    I think all those questions should enter into any decision to make rebates and incentives available. We certainly subsidize all the other fuels and energy, and maybe some of that $$ ends up in the CEO pocket?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Canucker
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,619
    In the seventies Canadian government helped fund installing energy recuperators on boilers for research. A conclusion whether investment pays was never reached as far as I know.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,849
    R Mannino said:

    So rebates and tax credits paid for by the public are OK to sway consumers decision making?

    It always better to use someone else's money especially when sanctioned by the government.
    All that works just fine until the money runs out. The stuff is not an infinite resource...

    A further general and somewhat philosophical comment -- the various rebate and incentive programs are fine -- for the people who can benefit from them. For the remainder of the poor slobs, they are a burden, either in the form of higher utility rates, fuel prices, or taxes. The ain't no free lunch.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • R Mannino
    R Mannino Member Posts: 434
    Agreed, I would just like to have some subsidies for my fermented beverage consumption, that's all......
    Robert O'Brien
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,257
    If a technology can't sell itself then we should not subsidise it. For r&d however, there have been many good things come from gov't funded wood burning appliances. But their sales are not subsidized, but are mandated in most states. The consumer gets a truly more efficient design and the neighbor gets less particulate pollution.

    It certainly is a two-edged sword though, it's like all those Phillip Morris adds about quitting smoking.


    SFM
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    GreenGene
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    edited July 2016
    Paul48 said:

    You don't need a calculator to figure out the price per therm of oil or gas, Doing so eliminates all "smoke and mirrors". I got sick and tired of being held captive to the whims of some middle eastern sheiks. If you locked in at a fixed price for oil, for the season, you paid higher than everyone else. And, invariably, that would be the season that the price didn't go up. If you rolled the dice and didn't lock in, the price would quadruple by peak heating season. To the sheiks.......Stick your oil where the sun don't shine!

    Sheiks? that's propaganda, Bush& Cheney and others control our oil from the ME, most of our oil comes from Canada, Bush, Cheney et al have business deals in the ME going way back, look up Kuwait-American corp, KBR, Halliburton, most all did business with and in Iran during crises and bans, it's business, all of Iraq's oil went to China, that's why we invaded Iraq.

    Try to put it in perspective and forget what our media has told us, how would you like it if since WWII other nations were here in the US taking our coal and oil and gas, taking all the profit and if they gave us work it would be menial and at low rates?

    Look up and read about the 1953 Iranian Coup D'etat.

    We and the Brits set up shop there after WWII, built US like towns for US and Brit workers paid them high, segregated the Iranians and paid them next to nothing, their Prime Minister, democratically elected I might ad, declared all of Iran's oil sovereign and owned by the people.

    We staged street riots and propaganda, a tactic we still use, and put our puppet the Shah in power.

    It was the catalyst for all of our problems.
    BobC
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567
    njtommy said:

    Who needs gas when we got heat pumps lol


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    njtommy
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    edited July 2016

    If a technology can't sell itself then we should not subsidise it. For r&d however, there have been many good things come from gov't funded wood burning appliances. But their sales are not subsidized, but are mandated in most states. The consumer gets a truly more efficient design and the neighbor gets less particulate pollution.

    It certainly is a two-edged sword though, it's like all those Phillip Morris adds about quitting smoking.


    SFM

    problem is the consumer can still buy junk, I tried to educate my state govt about outdoor wood boilers and how design affects the burn, my argument was to not allow anything that wasn't gasification or had a good quality chamber that heated the wood, any wood boiler that has no chamber will smoke like a green wood fire because the water will constantly suck the heat out of it.

    but then again, I live in Corrupticut and all you have to do is slip any of our politicians a beer and $44 and they'll do anything.

    They did pass a regulation that it's stack had to be as high as any stack with a few hundred feet and higher than any building within that...woopy, still stinks and smokes out the neighborhood.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,217
    I don't agree with subsidiaries on manufactured equipment for the general public. I would agree with shifting tax burdens and extraction fees in such a way that it would naturally persuade the public to shift to an energy source that is the most sustainable, environmental and economical for our country.

  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,326

    I don't agree with subsidiaries on manufactured equipment for the general public. I would agree with shifting tax burdens and extraction fees in such a way that it would naturally persuade the public to shift to an energy source that is the most sustainable, environmental and economical for our country.

    Who decides what fuel meets those qualifications?

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  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,217
    I guess the professionals who study these things? I doubt any of us on here would be qualified to make the determination. The important thing would be to leave politics out of it and do what is best for all.

    GreenGene
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,326
    Politicians will decide.
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  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,217
    Yes that's probably true. And it's up to us to try and get the right politicians in the right places. A daunting task.

  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,653

    Yes that's probably true. And it's up to us to try and get the right politicians in the right places. A daunting task.

    Is there such a thing? It seems like frog's hair these days. When they do come along, people get scared or are made scared by one side or the other. I vote against ALL incumbents as a matter of principal. Turn over the congress and senate a couple times and they wake up and realize who is in charge. I can't get more than 2 people to carpool at work so getting the whole nation together I have deemed impossible at this point, but I keep talking anyway.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,326

    Yes that's probably true. And it's up to us to try and get the right politicians in the right places. A daunting task.

    How is that been working out so far? :)
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  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,217
    I hear you. Sometimes we win, sometimes we loose. In spite of all our mistakes, we have it pretty good.

    Steve Minnich
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