alternates to R22

zepfan

Does anyone have any feedback that has used an alternate to R22 refrigerant such as 422B? I know that the system has to be completely flat, and void of any R22 to charge this into the system, but was curious to hear from anyone that has used this in place of R22, and what they think of it as a replacement, positive or negative. Thanks to all

njtommy

I have yet to use any drop ins for r22, but would like to know what other guys like or dislike about Nu22 or 422b as well.

jumper

Years ago some guy replaced r22 with propane in his customers' cars. Customers were satisfied but they still jailed the guy.

GreenGene

Products like Nu22 work great if you follow the rules and the rules are to not over charge, in fact you're going to under charge.

Most blends get a bad name because people charge wrong or use the sight glass, knowing the original charge weight is real nice and start out with 75-80% of that, check your readings see what your subcooling is and temp drop across the coil and work from there, it's also nice to know how the system used to work, or example did it have a 18 or 21 degree drop across the coil with 22?? If it only had 17-18 before expecting or trying to get more is fruitless.

You can contact ICOR for training too.

When I taught at Porter & Chester we did a study for them, starting with properly charged systems we recorded performance and then used their replacements and we always had good results.

Solid_Fuel_Man

@jumper I was not aware of any automotive cooling systems other than R12 and 134a.

SFM

irsteen1

is the use of EF-22a legal to use now in a 2 ton heatpump? Does the system need to be completely drained of remaining R22 first? thanks

GreenGene

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

@jumper I was not aware of any automotive cooling systems other than R12 and 134a.

SFM

Watch out for the new auto refrigerants, while we sit the rest of the world is banning HFC's, the new auto refr's are as dangerous as R-32, which is coming too to replace R-410A, 410 was just an interim refr until we found a better replacement which is probably impossible so for higher efficiency Daiken and others are going to R-32 which is the unstable half of 410, they added 125 to 32 to mellow it but that lowered the efficiency.

Plenty of arguing all around from regulating agencies to chemical corporations, at first the government's didn't like the new refr in cars but the argument was " you're telling me my flammable refrigerant, all 8oz of it, is more dangerous than the 30 gallons of gasoline in the tank??" so it's coming.

Check out what happens when a refrigerator has an evaporator leak and comes on to start ( temp control ignition source).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210334/Alert-new-wave-exploding-fridges-caused-environmentally-friendly-coolant.html

Extremely rare though, a few out of several hundred thousand made.

The thing we have to start getting in our heads is to purge our units with nitrogen after recovery before torching or you're going to wear it.

Dave0176

I don't use alternative refrigerants, If it's an older unit and i can find an obvious leak I'll fix it and just recharge with R22. Outside of that, I recommend new equipment with R410a, just not worth keeping the old stuff, they'd be putting good money into bad.

I've seen systems running 5 years already with just a 410 condenser and piston change out, same R22 line set and evap coil on some old systems, probably not efficient but they work.

Paul S_3

i myself have not used alternatives for r22....and I plan on not too...customer pays for the 22 not me i just stock it...I always try to switch to 410a especially if theres a leak in a coil...some say mo99(r438a) and r422b is drop in (compatible with mineral or alkyl benzene oil) just have to change the seals and driers with a small capacity loss.... I have a 15 ton split carrier system I service with MO99 in there previous contractor did the conversion a couple years before I took over no problems what so ever. around me I see a lot of contractors using R407c and claiming its a drop in with r22....Honeywell and Dupont say r407c is not a drop in (not compatible with mineral/AB oil) and requires a complete oil change to POE oil....Honeywell also states that in field experience technicians have added 15 to 20% on top of the total existing oil charge with POE oil....I guess r407c doesn't bind well with min/ab oil to return it back to the compressor....im going to stick with the original stuff.... ICOR a manufacture of R422B states in small writing that if a system has existing oil return problems please contact ICOR tech support before doing the conversion, which is a red flag to me...its bad enough we see oil return problems with the original refrigerants. Sporlan has a good bulletin on effects of compressor overheating and mixing oils http://sporlanonline.com/literature/misc/10-207.pdf

and I believe Copeland only approves R407c as an alternative

ChrisJ

GreenGene said:

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

@jumper I was not aware of any automotive cooling systems other than R12 and 134a.

SFM

Watch out for the new auto refrigerants, while we sit the rest of the world is banning HFC's, the new auto refr's are as dangerous as R-32, which is coming too to replace R-410A, 410 was just an interim refr until we found a better replacement which is probably impossible so for higher efficiency Daiken and others are going to R-32 which is the unstable half of 410, they added 125 to 32 to mellow it but that lowered the efficiency.

Plenty of arguing all around from regulating agencies to chemical corporations, at first the government's didn't like the new refr in cars but the argument was " you're telling me my flammable refrigerant, all 8oz of it, is more dangerous than the 30 gallons of gasoline in the tank??" so it's coming.

Check out what happens when a refrigerator has an evaporator leak and comes on to start ( temp control ignition source).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210334/Alert-new-wave-exploding-fridges-caused-environmentally-friendly-coolant.html

Extremely rare though, a few out of several hundred thousand made.

The thing we have to start getting in our heads is to purge our units with nitrogen after recovery before torching or you're going to wear it.

A neighbor of ours had a brand new refrigerator catch on fire and take out their entire kitchen right after it was delivered.

I believe it was due to a wiring problem and fresh spray foam.

I'm perfectly happy with my flammable refrigerant and the chances of a leak in a hermetic system are slim to none. The stuff performs better than R134A and is 100% environmentally friendly.


Regarding replacement refrigerants, weren't blend refrigerants always frowned upon? It seems like all of the drop in replacements are blends.

Dave0176

ChrisJ said:

GreenGene said:

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

@jumper I was not aware of any automotive cooling systems other than R12 and 134a.

SFM

Watch out for the new auto refrigerants, while we sit the rest of the world is banning HFC's, the new auto refr's are as dangerous as R-32, which is coming too to replace R-410A, 410 was just an interim refr until we found a better replacement which is probably impossible so for higher efficiency Daiken and others are going to R-32 which is the unstable half of 410, they added 125 to 32 to mellow it but that lowered the efficiency.

Plenty of arguing all around from regulating agencies to chemical corporations, at first the government's didn't like the new refr in cars but the argument was " you're telling me my flammable refrigerant, all 8oz of it, is more dangerous than the 30 gallons of gasoline in the tank??" so it's coming.

Check out what happens when a refrigerator has an evaporator leak and comes on to start ( temp control ignition source).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210334/Alert-new-wave-exploding-fridges-caused-environmentally-friendly-coolant.html

Extremely rare though, a few out of several hundred thousand made.

The thing we have to start getting in our heads is to purge our units with nitrogen after recovery before torching or you're going to wear it.

A neighbor of ours had a brand new refrigerator catch on fire and take out their entire kitchen right after it was delivered.

I believe it was due to a wiring problem and fresh spray foam.

I'm perfectly happy with my flammable refrigerant and the chances of a leak in a hermetic system are slim to none. The stuff performs better than R134A and is 100% environmentally friendly.


Regarding replacement refrigerants, weren't blend refrigerants always frowned upon? It seems like all of the drop in replacements are blends.

Yes and most of the replacements are 4-5 blended refrigerants. It's definitely frowned upon, but it's all we have to work with.

Let's look at it this way, when R410 replaced R22 the practices and handling of the equipment and refrigerant was like handling a new born baby, today it's seems to me it's status quo. I've seen replacements, repairs and stuff work that should never be done on paper. But it works.

Empire_2

NU-22 most closely represents the pressures on tp chart. Most other I have seen are not even close. While I will only use this on older systems, I serves a purpose.


Mike T.

Solid_Fuel_Man

With the price skyrocketing on 22 we will have many interesting things happening. I think we still have a can of r12 at the shop that has been sitting around for a couple of decades.

Have not experienced NU22 yet.

SFM

Paul S_3

i just started using nu22 i just used it the first time earlier today....i had a completely flat packaged unit with mineral oil. i repaired the refrigerant leak. weighed charge in. marked unit with my label maker. it actually worked out pretty good. they say its a 7% capacity drop.....anything with POE i use 407C ....i really like that refrigerant.

GreenGene

Just make sure that you start out with @80% of the blend, DO NOT charge NU22 or any replacement blend to the rated weight.

For instance if you had a unit that had a factory R-22 charge of 4lb3oz start with 80% of that or around 3lb4oz + -, replacement blends generally work better just under the factory charge, then check your numbers, head pres, drop at coil etc, if it's good stop charging and write in the new charge weight.

ICOR's training states to charge to 95% of the original charge, if you start at @ 80% you will be safe if you go over a bit while charging, 95% is tight, and don't use the sight glass for anything but checking moisture levels with any blend, when blends enter a sight glass it's an expanded area and part of them can flash to gas making you think you're under charged, ignore it.

With a blend if you over charge you're screwed, you can't take a little out only with a 2 part blend like 410, even then you could make a new mix that will not function.

Techman

I agree w/ the % of the old freon vs the amount of new freon % by weight is something to be aware of. But, I disagree w/ the "do not charge to a full SightGlass". I don't even think about the % thing on most systems. The TXV MUST have a full LL , at least according to Sporlan/Emerson/Danfoss/RSES,I think.

GreenGene

yeah but the problem is blends will fractionate inside the glass because it's larger than the pipe so you'll see bubbles, once your head pres, sh/sc, and temp drop across the evap are good it's time to stop charging

ChrisJ

If the TXV risks getting any flash gas it'll cause problems.
Continuous liquid is a must.

@GreenGene Do you feel there's any noticeable pressure drop in the glass due to that slight change in size? I wouldn't have expected any drop at all under those conditions.

Techman

GreeneGene, I agree about the "bubbling" in the SGMI w/ some blends, but that is different than "activity" in the SGMI and at the TXV. I am not aware of the SGMI being a "larger area" causing a press drop causing activity.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I have not seen a blend flash and then recollaps into liquid in a sight glass. I do understand what you are saying, but there should be no pressure change from the I let to the outlet of a sight glass. The restriction is the metering device downstream, and it needs liquid all the time, I still trust the sight glass. But I do wait a good 5 min before I believe what it tells me in a retrofit. 80% is a great starting point though. Withk an accumulator the safety factor is nice to insure no liquid makes it back to the compressor.

SFM