Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

Steam market

Tinman
Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
We're still trying to break into the steam market but I lost another replacement job to a forced air contractor. Furnace, ductwork, and AC in their house for the first time. I have no idea where they put the ductwork in this 100 year old two story because the basement ceiling height was only 6 1/2 feet.

What hurts the most is that I went in highly recommended and the owner is a first cousin of my employee, Tim. Offered him a good deal too.

I'm seeing more and more of that from the 30 something crowd, steam and hot water.

Where have all the purists gone?
Steve Minnich

Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    See if you can find out what happened there. Since there is a family connection, this is a rare chance to do so. I would bet the other contractor low-balled the job.

    Try to convince them not to tear out the steam system for now. We saved a hot-water system that way years ago when the scorched-air never worked right.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    SWEITinmanPaul S_3
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    I will ask Tim to do some recon for me.
    Steve Minnich
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    Find out if they did a load calc too, seen so many old houses like that and later they never worked because they were sized wrong.

    Plus going from steam to air can be funky if they spent some years with the steam, they'll never feel that radiant warmth again.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    GreenGene said:

    Find out if they did a load calc too, seen so many old houses like that and later they never worked because they were sized wrong.

    Plus going from steam to air can be funky if they spent some years with the steam, they'll never feel that radiant warmth again.

    Yeah,
    But steam is loud, and bangs a lot and isn't energy efficient.

    I can give you central air, heat and make all these huge radiators disappear for the same cost another guy will charge you for a boiler alone.


    That's what they sell the customer.
    Shame they don't tell them the cons.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,230
    A big negative for steam is that supposedly somebody is supposed to check boiler monthly. If I was still in business I'd try to develop a sealed steam system like Igor writes about.
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958
    It's a very strange thing, consumerism. Over the years I've paid closer attention to the destructive decisions that individuals and organizations make. I used to think it always came down to price alone.
    The key is realizing that something is intervening between the reality of what's in front of someone and their perception of it. Implanted imagery, memory, experience is the role of blanket advertising and anyone who is prone to "buying in" to what he or she perceives "everyone" is doing, then that's what they'll do.

    "New and efficient!" "It will pay itself back in savings alone!" What the prevailing advertising carpet bombing may as well say is "We know you will buy our smokescreen of unrealistic expectations because we've pushed the buttons on your simultaneous emotional needs for safety, novelty, and acceptance!"
    It amazes me how well this works. In all fields.

    Nevermind the reality of steam's comfort and longevity. And that a premium asset is literally scrapped in the process.

    The corollary is that we have a nation of people (present company excluded) who are unable or unconfident to judge anything on its own merit, just between themselves and the "thing" without unconsciously referencing the intervening implanted perception of group opinion.

    Our steam heating systems have neither an advertising campaign nor have they been rediscovered by enough young people so as to provide a hipness factor (which in itself provides a similar inbuilt affirmation system, but what the heck).

    A lot of great stuff was thrown away before being appreciated again. The question is how to present the preservation and improvement of existing steam heating as a "hip" and "green" option.

    I suppose in this particular instance, the cousin should have been referred here to heatinghelp from the outset. They would have gotten their affirmation right here. And if they were referred here, then they didn't want any facts to interfere with their decision.
    terry
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    I can almost guarantee that a load calc was not done.
    Steve Minnich
  • AMservices
    AMservices Member Posts: 610
    After learning about how incredible steam is and finding heatinghelp, when I hear about another steam system being removed, I feel like I'm hearing about a pending death in the family.
    This is what I usually get from the conversations.

    Homeowner: I think we're finally gonna pull the cord on Grandpa Steam.

    Heatinghelper: What?.....Why? Last I heard he was still doing his thing, sitting at home telling War stories about limbs being cut off, then people coming by just to torture him and through it all he still managed to keep his home safe for his family and always a warm welcome when they walk in the door.

    Homeowner: well he's only getting older and louder. All the doctors we've talked to said that we don't want to be caught paying for a funeral when it's unexpected.

    Heatinghelper: he's only getting loud to get your attention and unless he's pissing all over his feet he probably just needs a little physical therapy.
    Go pay Grandpa steam a visit and find a better doctor YOU MURDERER!

    Homeowner: my wife just doesn't want to see his trash taking up space in the corners of the room anymore.

    Heatinghelper: "trash", I think you meant to say "treasure"
    You and your wife don't know it yet, but you're going to burn and heating hell for this

    I might have used a little too much feeling describing that.
    Honestly though, Keep Steam.


    ttekushan_3
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    The deal breaker was probably the simple fact of getting AC, and a new heating system. Verses fixing the present heating system, and still have no AC.
    Tinman
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    I believe this is a place where Mini split AC/ heat pumps may help in retaining steam or hot water systems.
    --Some people want better AC's than the window wall shakers. --Mini's are advertised on TV as a good green heating/cooling source.
    --Quiet and better air flow thru out the floor plan than window AC's. (Even with only 2 to 3 inside coils). Much better de-humidification through out entire house.
    --Inside coils do not have to be installed on the outside walls; I have hung them on inside walls with line set boxed inside closets etc. Condensate drain goes to daylight thru rim joist, AC lines not exposed on outside walls.
    --Very economical operation for quick heating during the shoulder seasons.
    --Saves steam boiler from short cycling during the shoulder seasons.
    --But the best sell on this is when the boiler is still functional, catch the customer while servicing steam or HW system.
    --These would reduce their heating bills and prolong the life of the steam or HW boiler. Not clutter up the basement with ductwork. Keep their view thru windows. No seasonal in & out of AC's.
    --Also for a 2 story house a single FA furnace in the basement will seldom deliver cooling to the second floor without huge ductwork. A Mini up there would only need a line set with a paintable cover that would not look bad on the outside of the house.

    If your business is boilers only, it would behoove you to promote the mini splits over a ducted forced air furnace. Otherwise the FA tin man will move in everywhere and you are completely out.
    IMO
    SWEITinman
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    For customers on oil or LPG, the fuel savings during shoulder seasons can be significant. Pairing with an existing hot water or steam system can allow right-sizing of a mini-split. Trying to cover winter design conditions can be a losing proposition.

    You'd need an HSPF of 28 here to match the cost of a good NG-fired mod/con.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    I would never try to use any heat pump for the only source of heat. That would lead to massive oversizing or super duper (claims anyway) of efficiency.

    The main point being that the best mod/con or steam boiler in the world will not provide AC.

    People have been so conditioned (pun intended) for the last 40 to 50 years that AC is considered almost a right.

    Get into the car (AC) , suffer across the concrete parking lot into the overcooled workplace, spend most of the day there, survive the walk back to the car AC and come home to window AC's.
    Just a fact of today's life.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    It's amazing we survived! We even had to get up to change the channel on the TV. If we got a phone call, it was at home, not while driving down the hi-way. And here's a really frightening thing.....we spoke face-to-face. :wink:
    JUGHNEGordy
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    edited June 2016
    Paul48 said:

    It's amazing we survived! We even had to get up to change the channel on the TV. If we got a phone call, it was at home, not while driving down the hi-way. And here's a really frightening thing.....we spoke face-to-face. :wink:

    Yeah.
    Just imagine how the people before you lived?

    No bathroom, no toilet paper, no indoor plumbing, no hot water.
    My house has a 1000 gallon cistern under the kitchen floor that collected rain water from the roof to wash dishes with.

    I also have a map of where the outhouse was.

    House was heated by 3 coal / wood stoves.

    Think your generation could've made it? A week? :)

    Let's not forget the dental procedures of the time as well that everyone lived with.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    JUGHNE said:

    I believe this is a place where Mini split AC/ heat pumps may help in retaining steam or hot water systems.
    --Some people want better AC's than the window wall shakers. --Mini's are advertised on TV as a good green heating/cooling source.
    --Quiet and better air flow thru out the floor plan than window AC's. (Even with only 2 to 3 inside coils). Much better de-humidification through out entire house.
    --Inside coils do not have to be installed on the outside walls; I have hung them on inside walls with line set boxed inside closets etc. Condensate drain goes to daylight thru rim joist, AC lines not exposed on outside walls.
    --Very economical operation for quick heating during the shoulder seasons.
    --Saves steam boiler from short cycling during the shoulder seasons.
    --But the best sell on this is when the boiler is still functional, catch the customer while servicing steam or HW system.
    --These would reduce their heating bills and prolong the life of the steam or HW boiler. Not clutter up the basement with ductwork. Keep their view thru windows. No seasonal in & out of AC's.
    --Also for a 2 story house a single FA furnace in the basement will seldom deliver cooling to the second floor without huge ductwork. A Mini up there would only need a line set with a paintable cover that would not look bad on the outside of the house.

    If your business is boilers only, it would behoove you to promote the mini splits over a ducted forced air furnace. Otherwise the FA tin man will move in everywhere and you are completely out.
    IMO

    Mini splits are an "alternative" to most. Somewhere in between window shakers, and the inconspicuous FA AC. Most would decline to have the wall unit take up space, and continuity of their decor, and walls. For some where conventional FA ductwork is near impossible the minisplit is the only resolution that's above a window shaker.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    ChrisJ said:

    Paul48 said:

    It's amazing we survived! We even had to get up to change the channel on the TV. If we got a phone call, it was at home, not while driving down the hi-way. And here's a really frightening thing.....we spoke face-to-face. :wink:

    Yeah.
    Just imagine how the people before you lived?

    No bathroom, no toilet paper, no indoor plumbing, no hot water.
    My house has a 1000 gallon cistern under the kitchen floor that collected rain water from the roof to wash dishes with.

    I also have a map of where the outhouse was.

    House was heated by 3 coal / wood stoves.

    Think your generation could've made it? A week? :)

    Let's not forget the dental procedures of the time as well that everyone lived with.

    Your speaking of a time when that was the top of the ladder in comfort, and convenience. Once innovation evolves into the betterment of society it's hard to go back.

    Now go back 100 years in time from the era your discriptive list of conveniences. That would seem atrocious.




  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    Gordy said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Paul48 said:

    It's amazing we survived! We even had to get up to change the channel on the TV. If we got a phone call, it was at home, not while driving down the hi-way. And here's a really frightening thing.....we spoke face-to-face. :wink:

    Yeah.
    Just imagine how the people before you lived?

    No bathroom, no toilet paper, no indoor plumbing, no hot water.
    My house has a 1000 gallon cistern under the kitchen floor that collected rain water from the roof to wash dishes with.

    I also have a map of where the outhouse was.

    House was heated by 3 coal / wood stoves.

    Think your generation could've made it? A week? :)

    Let's not forget the dental procedures of the time as well that everyone lived with.

    Your speaking of a time when that was the top of the ladder in comfort, and convenience. Once innovation evolves into the betterment of society it's hard to go back.

    Now go back 100 years in time from the era your discriptive list of conveniences. That would seem atrocious.




    *You're. :)

    I'm not sure much changed from 1760-1860.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    RomanGK_26986764589
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Paul48 said:

    It's amazing we survived! We even had to get up to change the channel on the TV. If we got a phone call, it was at home, not while driving down the hi-way. And here's a really frightening thing.....we spoke face-to-face. :wink:

    Imagine the night when there was not any electricity. Even before gas lamps. Reading by candle, or fire light. Imagine the night time where pitch black darkness was only lite by the stars on a clear night. How beautiful the night sky must have been, and how scary the darkness must have been to the dwellers of the past.
    Tinman
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    Gordy said:

    Paul48 said:

    It's amazing we survived! We even had to get up to change the channel on the TV. If we got a phone call, it was at home, not while driving down the hi-way. And here's a really frightening thing.....we spoke face-to-face. :wink:

    Imagine the night when there was not any electricity. Even before gas lamps. Reading by candle, or fire light. Imagine the night time where pitch black darkness was only lite by the stars on a clear night. How beautiful the night sky must have been, and how scary the darkness must have been to the dwellers of the past.
    Imagine before that where at night you had absolutely no light other than perhaps the moon and you were free game for everything that had better low light vision.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited June 2016
    ChrisJ said:

    Gordy said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Paul48 said:

    It's amazing we survived! We even had to get up to change the channel on the TV. If we got a phone call, it was at home, not while driving down the hi-way. And here's a really frightening thing.....we spoke face-to-face. :wink:

    Yeah.
    Just imagine how the people before you lived?

    No bathroom, no toilet paper, no indoor plumbing, no hot water.
    My house has a 1000 gallon cistern under the kitchen floor that collected rain water from the roof to wash dishes with.

    I also have a map of where the outhouse was.

    House was heated by 3 coal / wood stoves.

    Think your generation could've made it? A week? :)

    Let's not forget the dental procedures of the time as well that everyone lived with.

    Your speaking of a time when that was the top of the ladder in comfort, and convenience. Once innovation evolves into the betterment of society it's hard to go back.

    Now go back 100 years in time from the era your discriptive list of conveniences. That would seem atrocious.




    *You're. :)

    I'm not sure much changed from 1760-1860.

    When I'm on the phone posting I do not get to excited about the English language. Changing between keypads to properly punctuate is a drag for sausage fingers. I think you can catch the just of the matter.
    ttekushan_3Tinman
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    Not quite everywhere else, my design temp is -7 to -10.
    And any heat pump may stumble in the wintertime. The more complex the system the higher the likelihood. Most boilers would see a quicker repair time than HP.
    From the service end of things being able to tell the customer to switch to emergency or back up heat, while on the phone on a Friday night, is worth a lot to all involved.

    Personally I have HW radiant with a mix of infloor and BB convectors. Boiler parts on the shelf.
    Also 2 complete systems (zones) of ductwork for 2 AH/AC.
    (15 KW could go into each AH if need be)
    In this area had I not been in the business, I would just have a single FA NG furnace, (as 98% of the homes here are). I understand the cost of having both systems and am aware of why the push for FA with AC.

    If I were in an area with mostly boilers and window airs I would actively pursue selling mini's and retain the hydronic systems.
    Once I felt comfortable having the customer's confidence in me I would then make suggestions.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    Gordy said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Gordy said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Paul48 said:

    It's amazing we survived! We even had to get up to change the channel on the TV. If we got a phone call, it was at home, not while driving down the hi-way. And here's a really frightening thing.....we spoke face-to-face. :wink:

    Yeah.
    Just imagine how the people before you lived?

    No bathroom, no toilet paper, no indoor plumbing, no hot water.
    My house has a 1000 gallon cistern under the kitchen floor that collected rain water from the roof to wash dishes with.

    I also have a map of where the outhouse was.

    House was heated by 3 coal / wood stoves.

    Think your generation could've made it? A week? :)

    Let's not forget the dental procedures of the time as well that everyone lived with.

    Your speaking of a time when that was the top of the ladder in comfort, and convenience. Once innovation evolves into the betterment of society it's hard to go back.

    Now go back 100 years in time from the era your discriptive list of conveniences. That would seem atrocious.




    *You're. :)

    I'm not sure much changed from 1760-1860.

    When I'm on the phone posting I do not get to excited about the English language. Changing between keypads to properly punctuate is a drag for sausage fingers. I think you can catch the just of the matter.
    I've heard this excuse before and personally don't agree with it.

    Sorry. :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    JUGHNE said:

    Not quite everywhere else, my design temp is -7 to -10.
    And any heat pump may stumble in the wintertime. The more complex the system the higher the likelihood. Most boilers would see a quicker repair time than HP.
    From the service end of things being able to tell the customer to switch to emergency or back up heat, while on the phone on a Friday night, is worth a lot to all involved.

    Personally I have HW radiant with a mix of infloor and BB convectors. Boiler parts on the shelf.
    Also 2 complete systems (zones) of ductwork for 2 AH/AC.
    (15 KW could go into each AH if need be)
    In this area had I not been in the business, I would just have a single FA NG furnace, (as 98% of the homes here are). I understand the cost of having both systems and am aware of why the push for FA with AC.

    If I were in an area with mostly boilers and window airs I would actively pursue selling mini's and retain the hydronic systems.
    Once I felt comfortable having the customer's confidence in me I would then make suggestions.

    If ductwork is possible. Even near impossible. The hard sell becomes the mini split units on the wall, that never go away. Verses the switch on a thermostat that flips to cool in the summer, and to heat in the winter.


  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356

    How about a unit that can offer 19K for heating @ 14F ambient with a COP of 3.78?
    24K for cooling @ 95F ambient?
    http://www.chiltrix.com/chiller-technology.htm

    ...from a nominal 3T unit. Our heating loads here are roughly twice the size of our cooling loads.

    I'm heading to AZ next Thursday to commission one (paired with 6,000 gallons of insulated storage.)
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Gordy said:

    If ductwork is even near impossible. The hard sell becomes the mini split units on the wall, that never go away.

    The mini-duct indoor units are much more flexible. They can be tucked into a 10" joist space or the top of a closet. Much easier to get good air distribution using a few short (like 4 foot or less short) branches of spiral duct and the aesthetics make for a much easier sell.
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,616
    I've always suspected that those would be the bee's knees. We've installed a half-dozen VRF systems in the last year, (unfortunately the heat recovery boxes were "value" "engineered" away so they're straight heat pumps). If I had the moolah I'd pop one in my own house just for the zoning—my '20s ductwork doesn't move the cool air like it should. :/

    Have you used the floor mounted heads before? Those also look like an improvement over the wall tumors that are so popular.

  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    @ChrisJ

    Yes....I believe that most of my generation would have survived. We didn't have the struggles of earlier generations, for sure. But we still understood and were capable of physical labor. The generations that followed, although physically larger than us because of growth hormones fed the things we eat, are physically in worse shape. Of course, I'm talking in general. There are exceptions to every rule.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    ratio said:

    Have you used the floor mounted heads before? Those also look like an improvement over the wall tumors that are so popular.

    Not yet. They sure do look like an easy retrofit for a raised foundation single story.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    "Wall Tumors" :* ........60 years ago a roof mounted TV antenna was a real eyesore or not? No, it was a status symbol of being affluent in the neighborhood.....coming up and being modern.

    If just a few are out there and visiting neighbors compare it to their wall shakers, they will realize that window units are something you see in the mostly in the trailer courts.
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958
    I occasionally get to re-engineer residential steam (and some HW) heating for a client that does very high end rehab/reconfigure on select homes built in '20's and '30's. The extensive layout changes in kitchens and baths (and new additions) involve a lot of radiator moves, resizes, and additions. I have to reverse engineer each existing system and match the new arrangements to the EDR-to-heat-loss ratio as it is in the undisturbed parts of the home.

    The A/C is always handled separately, installed in the 3rd floor eaves space. Ducting is done from above as is the return air.
    Ducting down to the 1st floor has impressed as to how minimal it can be and provide comfort and even distribution of room temperatures when done this way. High altitude placement of the A/C is the key. So ducting can be done less disruptively.

    I just don't see how doing a complete heat and cool FA retrofit could be done as unobtrusively as adding even a typical dedicated A/C system to the original structure's wet heating system.

    Incidentally, these people turn the old home into a fully turn-key "modern old home" with otherwise new mechanicals. The homes sell for a healthy price in very short order. And the steam or HW heat, replete with cast iron radiators, is never ever a hindrance to how the home is received.
    terry
    JUGHNECanucker
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    I just gave away my wall shaker but the funny thing is that 14k unit was quiet and pretty cheap to run; if you buy a cheap unit you deserve what you get. I don't miss having a window blocked all summer.

    I lived for a year without running water or central heat on a remote site with 5 other GI's. We did have plenty of electricity for the radio gear but that was good and bad, the security lights meant everybody knew where we were. When your on a mountain top you can't shut the lights off or some damn fool will run into you with his plane while looking for your beacon. Guys used to sneak across the DMZ to try and catch us off guard, it kept us very aware of our surroundings.

    I enjoyed that year, we were busy but we all got along and the gear was kept in working shape. We had to depend on ourselves, the nearest help was 26 miles away so we did a lot of jury rigging till we could drive to the base and get parts. We had plenty of food and plenty of weapons.

    We would all be better off living a bit simpler.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    I'm running four of them right now.
    Can't afford any better, fact is my entire house is cool, loud or not this would've been luxury in the 1960s-70s.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Gordy
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    My wife and I are doing the same. She hates AC. I can't live without it. We can cool our moderately sized 1500 sf home with 10,000 BTU/h. The impact on our electric bill is negligible.
    Steve Minnich
    GordyCanucker
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,042
    I forgot, one house with steam heat that was remodeled with NG FA with AC installed. The young wife insisted on leaving the CI rads in the room as she liked the ambiance of that look.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    This will be the first one I have eyes on. It's a showcase off-grid project that will definitely see some press coverage.

    We're swapping in a new ModBus-equipped control board before we start it up. I'd like to see a 1-1/2 or 2T version, but that does not seem to be in the cards, at least for now.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    I throw a winder shaker in each bedroom 2-5k and an 8k. Can't stand hot, and humid trying to sleep. Then a 12k in the living room. No big deal for me. Duct work in the attic is an inefficient no brainier. Wifey hates the minisplit wall unit look. Ducted mini splits still put things in the attic space.
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,230
    Here are some thoughts.Inadequate heat is tougher to take than a little too little cooling. And warm temperatures aren't so bad with a bit of dehumidification. A properly set up air conditioner in the attic can make your home fairly comfortable without ducts running everywhere.
  • AMservices
    AMservices Member Posts: 610
    I started installing ductless heat pump systems 12 years ago.
    I have averaged 15 - 25 installations a year since 2008, most of them are multi-zone systems.
    Call backs are rare and if I do get one it's typically after 2 years in, the customer has never cleaned their air filters, or they want more installed.
    All the problems I found doing service work have to do with the motherboard's in the outdoor unit and rodents looking for a warm place to make a nest.
    Indoor unit problems have more to do with the people that install them, improperly pitched drains, poorly made flared connections, electricians mixing up wires, ect.
    I mostly deal with Fujitsu because 1. My experience with them always working past the expectations of the customer 2. Fujitsu is carried in 3 of the distributors I commonly use 3. They have all the same ratings (even a little better) as Mitsubishi for $1000 less.
    http://www.heatpumpshalifax.ca/minisplit-heat-pump-showdown-fujitsu-vs-mitsubishi/
    LG is comparable to Fujitsu with pricing and operating ratings. What separates LG from the rest is they have more a selection with wall mounted units, where white is the only option you get with everyone else. LG has black, silver and cool art that is a picture frame 30"Wx21"Hx5"D and you can put any picture you want to fill the frame.
    When I'm selling them I try to explain to the customer how
    - these systems provide cooling and heating
    - multiple zones that modulate make for a more efficient and balanced performing HVAC system
    - the system is so quite (indoor and outdoor units) it's hard to believe their running
    - using them as heaters will cut down there fuel bill and
    When Oil price was high, customers were seeing a 5 year payback
    -the installation is fast with very little mess. 5-6 zones on average only takes 3 days from start to finish.
    Single zone systems, 1 day.

    The problems I have selling, regardless of all the benefits
    - customer saying "I don't want that S on my wall"
    - some how there's contractors that do installs for what the material costs me
    - for 5-6 zones of of ductless, i can install a conventional HVAC system a few grand less. Even though it takes twice as long
    Gordy
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Fujitsu here as well, and for pretty much the same reasons. Their low ambient heating capacity is top notch, with almost 16,000 BTU out of the 9k models -- a near-perfect fit for our climate here.

    LG makes a nice looking package, but heating performance is lower, similar to current Daikin offerings.