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2nd floor steam radiator cools off/does not stay hot

LionA29
LionA29 Member Posts: 255
edited February 2016 in THE MAIN WALL
Hi guys
I have a A frame cape brick and located in Floral Park.
I'm New to steam and I'm trying to figure out why my daughter (9yrs) room 2nd floor farthest from the boiler will not maintain 70° with thermostat. It cools off after thermostat is satified and the boiler will cycle on and off at 70° but will not heat it up back until I raise it +2°. That will take thermostat to 72°.
Then it will heat up and cools off. The room will go down to 63° while the thermostat is at 70°.
30" radiator
New varivent valve
New Gordon main vent #2
Clean water
Pressure troll Cut in 3 psi & 2 diff
Can't seem to get this fix.
Anyone can recommend someone to fix this problem, I will be greatful.
Thank you

Comments

  • The pressure is too high, and may be interfering with the main vent allowing the air to escape. Try setting the pressuretrol as low as you can get it, (under 2 psi), verified by a low pressure 0-3 psi gauge.
    What sort of vents are on the other radiators? The varivent is quite a spitter. Having Maid-o-mist vents with changeable orifices would be better, with the smallest orifice selected at first.
    The goal would be to get steam to all radiators at the same time. Probably this radiator is slower to get steam because the other highly vented ones hog all the steam during the beginning of the cycle.
    Will people know where Floral Park is, without a zip code?--NBC
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
    What is the Taco circ in vertical position doing.Also does your pressure relief valve discharge often as I see they piped a drain to it.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,159
    As a very first cut -- with the pressure that high, it is very possible that the vent on that radiator is closing and staying closed. It won't reopen until the pressure at the radiator drops to nearly zero -- and it can't.

    So the first thing to do is to get the pressure down where it belongs: 0.5 psi cutin and 1 psi pressure differential.

    Then check and see that all of the vents -- including that one -- are actually still working. 5 psi is high enough that it can destroy vents, so you may have a problem there.

    The near boiler piping is a little... unusual. We'll worry about that later.

    I too wonder about the circulators. What are they for? And the pressure relief valve...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    edited February 2016
    @nicholas bonham-carter I raised the pressure to see if that will help. The original settings weren't doing anything.
    The other radiators have varivent a on them. Had maid o mist on other properties and they leak at the seam after a while. This property had all varivent, so I stick with it.
    Floral Park, NY 11001.
    @ Jonny88 I have my basement tied in using a separate zone( hydronic). The vertical pump circulate around the basement and one pipe ran over through the ceiling back to the boiler. It couldn't be on the ground because of a door.
    Relief valve pipe was just a precaution and doesn't discharge.
    Hope I answered all questions, thank you for your inputs.
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    edited February 2016
    @Jamie Hall
    Ran it lastnite with those pressures and no difference.
    Setting it to the settings you recommended.
    Near boiler pipping( header) looks alittle off. I do get water up to air vents sometimes, maybe if I get a drop header specs I can re-pipe it.
    Status now: (1st Fl)Thermo 71° and room temp is 64° with a cold rad.
    Thank you.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    The varivalve vents are extremely aggressive. At 50% they vent faster than a Gorton #1 main vent. If I was a betting man I would say you are venting rads too fast and they are stealing steam from this radiator or the thermostat is being satisfied so fast there isn't enough time to get the steam to all the rads. The steam should reach all radiators at about the same time. In your case I would slow down the venting on the other radiators. Also what size and how long are the mains? You mention a Gorton #2 main vent. The amount of main venting is dictated by the length and size of pipe.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    LionA29
  • Hoffman 40's are the most bulletproof valves available, and will not be so aggressive as the radiator vents you have. You want the main vents letting the air out with very low resistance, (2 ounces back-pressure), and the radiator vents slower with slightly higher resistance. This will give the steam a better chance of arriving at all radiators simultaneously. If the top floor is still lagging behind the others, then you can get a Hoffman 1A, and dial it up a bit.
    Is the main Gorton #2 vent working properly? Does the boiler cut out on those pressure settings?
    Depending on the length of your mains, you may need more main venting.--NBC
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    @KC_Jones
    Main length 34ft
    Size 2"
    Thermostat is located in the living room 1st fl which is not near to any radiator.
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    All of the vents are working properly when boiler turns on and warms up like original post.
    Checked back all vents and dialed less that 50% but the farthest is fully open.
    Still will not main the thermostat setting after it heats up.
    If it's 70° in the living room of thermostat and move up to 72°, it will get really hot in the room to 68°-70° but after the thermostat satisfied it will cool off and then won't heat up back until raising +2° again.
    It's not maintaining the heat in the rad. Just cooling off at 63°-64°.
    Thanks again
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    That is a decent amount of venting for that much main more wouldn't hurt, but you are probably at the point of diminishing returns or close to it. Even if the thermostat isn't close to a rad the speed that the room heats up is dictated by how fast the rads heat. If you vent the rads too aggressively it is difficult to control AND balance and that is what you have going on. Higher pressure will not fix this and only cost you money. Honestly if you raised the pressuretrol and actually hit those higher pressures that's a good indicator of not enough main vents OR an oversized boiler or both. Have you done an EDR calculation to see how well matched the boiler is to the connected load? Also it's tough to tell in the pics, but what size pipe is that on the boiler and header? It looks like it might be 2" which is too small for that boiler. It should be 2 1/2" minimum according to the manufacturer (Is that an EG-40 or 45?). If it's too small that could cause wet steam which would amplify the problem with water at your rads in addition to the aggressive venting. Even with those vents as low as possible they are aggressive especially on a first floor radiator.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    LionA29
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    edited February 2016
    @KC_Jones
    This boiler is a
    Weil McLain EG 40S installed 11/13/92.(24yrs old)
    Previous own left me receipt and paperwork. Riser is about 2 1/2" coming out of the boiler changed to 2" header.
    Do I change all vents on the 1st floor to Hoffman 40 and Hoffman 1a on the 2nd as @nicholas bonham-carter recommended?
    Thank you.
    @KC_Jones is that a Weil McLain you have on your profile pic with a drop header?
    Can you please send me pic and specs if you don't mind @ LionA29@aol.com
    Thank you.
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    edited February 2016
    1st Fl 5 steam convectors with straight Varivalves
    2nd Fl 3 cast iron radiators with 1 straight and 2 angle Varivalves.
    I found an old Dole 1933 straight valve which was removed from one of the convectors some time ago and replaced with a Straight Varivalve.
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    edited February 2016
    Dole valve No.1933
    Steam convector with Varivalve
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    What is going on with that radiator? What is that fitting at the top of the radiator? I can't see it clearly from the picture. Why is there a new plug in the bottom of that radiator? Can we have a picture of the supply pipe on the other side of the radiator? What size is the supply pipe?
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    @Fred
    The vent valve was located there and it was recommended that the proper position is at the middle. So I extracted the plug and installed the valve there.
    The plug in the bottom was removed and reseated with new plug.
    Connection to the rad is a 1" and a new shut off valve.
    Pics attached
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited February 2016
    Maybe we have found your problem, or a good part of it. From what I see, that radiator has 21 sections of 5 tubes. If it is 30" or 32" tall, it has an EDR of about 91Sq. Ft. if it is 36" tall, the EDR is 105 Sq. Ft. IF in fact the supply pipe (coming up from the floor) is just 1", that pipe will only support about 25 EDR, maybe a little more but not a radiator that size. Was the supply to tyhat radiator changed or that radiator replaced at some point, with this large one? The supply for that size radiator should be at least 1.5"
    LionA29
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    edited February 2016
    @ Fred
    Yes Fred, it was replaced because the room was a bit cold.
    Radiator left to right is 41" -24 fins
    6" deep with 5 fins
    Height 25" with legs.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited February 2016
    At that height, with 24 sections the EDR is 87 Sq. Ft. , about 3 times what a 1" pipe can support. The supply pipe, ideally should still be 1.5". If you want to keep that radiator, in that location. A 1.25" supply pipe will supprt a 55 EDR radiator, about 2/3 the size of the one you have there. Remember, on a 1 pipe system, there has to be enough room in the pipe for the steam to get in and the condensate to get out. That's not going to happen with a radiator this size and a 1" pipe. A 1" pipe can't even supply the steam required, let alone carry condensate out.
    aircooled81LionA29RomanGK_26986764589
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    edited February 2016
    After assessing the post I've decided to run a new 1 1/2" supply pipe from the main supply. I have to figure out how to get pass the asbestos on the existing elbows.
    Awesome discovery @Fred. Absolute genius!
    Thanks to all the steam pros who spent their time to read my post and help with their suggestions.
    I really appreciate all your help especially @Dan Holohan for supporting and creating this Forum.
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    edited January 2017
    Fixed all my headaches and pains during the past yr. It wasn't easy but I gained a lot of experience and I'm glad I took the task at hand. Thanks to everyone who contributed to my post and given their time!

    Thank you!
    KC_JonesratioRomanGK_26986764589