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in floor heating

dirtydog
dirtydog Member Posts: 11
Hello all,
We recently had a slab poured with in floor heating and then had a pole building built on top of it. When the contractor was attaching the post holders, we believe he hit one of the wirsbo lines with a drill bit, as we developed a leak in one of the bolt holes. My question concerns liability. Can the wirsbo shift when the slab is being poured enough that it would end up in the wrong spot? My contractor says one thing and the plumber says the other. I haven't talked to the cement guy yet. A neutral building consultant suggested that all three parties should share the blame and fix it, chalking it up to "poop happens." I tend to lean towards that but would like some non partisan views. Thanks!

Comments

  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Can the tubing shift? Yes if not properly tied. How far was the tubing from the outer edge before pouring? Was it installed allowing for the anchorage assemblies? Was there communication between the tubing installer the concrete installer, and the building installer?
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    Yes, all three were there. The only one REALLY placing blame is the building contractor. The plumber and the cement guy have tons of experience. The tubes were even moved in tighter to accommodate the assemblies, per the contractor's request. Everyone knew what the plan was and how much space was needed.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,868
    How was the tubing secured? How close to the edge was it run? Did anyone take pics of the tubing before the pour?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    Unfortunately I don't know the answer to that because I was not there. The foundation guy and plumber are professionals who have done a lot of these, so I have to have some faith that they knew what they were doing in respect to securing the tubing. They all knew what space was needed in order to secure the posts as well. I doubt anyone has a picture but after this whole experience, I would certainly make sure to take one next time!!
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,755
    I take pictures of every aspect of every job I do and have for as long as I can remember.

    CYA.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    dirtydog
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,536
    No air pressure in the system before the slab was poured?
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    GW said:

    No air pressure in the system before the slab was poured?

    From what I gather GW the tubing was punctured while drilling a fastener assembly into the concrete for the vertical posts for the pole barn.
    dirtydogZman
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited January 2016
    dirtydog said:

    Yes, all three were there. The only one REALLY placing blame is the building contractor. The plumber and the cement guy have tons of experience. The tubes were even moved in tighter to accommodate the assemblies, per the contractor's request. Everyone knew what the plan was and how much space was needed.


    So next question:

    Was there deviation from discussed layout?

    Or was initial layout in error?

    Who did the layout for the anchorage points?

    Seems to me if everyone was on board then someone was in error.

    Either layout was wrong which the builder should have been there for that.

    Or tubing shifted which more care should have been taken in critical areas.

    Or care was not taken during concrete placement to make sure in critical areas concrete was carefully place to not disturb the tubing.
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    The contractor was present when the crete was poured and moved the tubing in tighter to have more room. The they had stops to keep the bolts from going deeper than 3 inches, (I believe that was the depth but not positive) but no stops on the drill bits from what I understand. The plumber believes the hole was caused by a drill bit going too deep. Out of 16 posts there was only one bolt hole with an issue.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    If the builder was there to monitor, and did not monitor the drilling its on him. The tubes were clear to his satisfaction so how could he hit them if drilled to deep? My unbiased opinion.
    SWEI
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    Thank you. That was my conclusion but I also don't want to screw anyone either. This is a small town and I know all of these people and have to see them on a regular basis. It makes it great but it also makes it difficult. I've learned a lot through this whole process but in the event I ever have to bury something under crete again, I will be taking pictures for sure! On a good note, the heated slab is so freakin' awesome! Love it!!!
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,536
    Ok I get it now

    Not to seem like a real downer, but how much time is needed to fix it? 2 hours? 3? What is the huge matter? I'd be ticked too if it were my layout, but then I'd just fix it. I'd either be there while the mud is poured or I'd take dozens of pics

    Heat is on, so it's fixed?

    The concrete guys may have stubbed the toe on a line and moved the tube. The truth may never be known
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    We have it zoned so that zone is turned off. I've spent a LOT of money on this so I want it to be perfect. They will have to cut the slab and fix the hole and then patch the slab. I'm not sure what it will cost. I just don't think it's something I should pay for, given the amount of money I've spent with these guys. Plus the contractor is the only one playing the blame game, instead of assuring me, the customer, that my problem will be,taken care of. It shouldn't be my problem how it happens.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Definitely not your fault. I'd stick with that, and leave the GC and mechanical contractor to work out their differences.
    dirtydog
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,536
    I wonder why the plumber can't chip away the floor and add a couple couplings. The concrete isn't fully cured so it shouldn't be a big deal.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    That might the plan. I'm waiting to hear from the cement guy; he's fishing for a week in Canada. We're in northeastern MN so this is contractor down time! :)
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,283
    If he saw cuts around the area where the repair is need he should be able to blend in a nice patch, compared to just breaking up the area.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    That was my thinking. He poured me a beautiful piece of crete so I'd hate to see it get marred.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Be aware of weakening the anchorage point for that post.

    Evidently the failure would be under this area. So how much concrete need be removed from under the column.
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    I don't know that, sorry.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited January 2016
    I only say this because if he drilled for an anchor for the post then the tubing must be in close proximity to that post.

    Depending on thickness, and depth of the tubing the repair hole will need to be big enough to allow room to make the repair.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    A patch will be just that. Probably different color as I highly doubt the repair concrete will be from the plant. So a bagged mix will be used for the patch, and will be different color.
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    We're going to seal it anyway, so that's ok. I'll just park my sled in that spot!
    Gordy
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,536
    If that one bolt is gonna mess with the entire structure, you could be crafy. Can the tube run some heat for a short time before making a mess? If yes get an IR cam, scope the lines and cut in a couple feet away ( or whatever, 12 or 18") on each side. Simply abandon the tube that the bolt grazed. Of course you will need to connect to couplings with new piece of tube
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    [email protected]
  • dirtydog
    dirtydog Member Posts: 11
    I don't think it will fall down without it.