So My Boiler Piping is Crap...

roc_rktec

A few months ago I posted on here about help trying to balance my one-pipe steam system. Once I provided photographs of my boiler, I was quickly informed that my first and most pressing problem was the ridiculous piping job performed by the person who originally installed the boiler. The boiler is a Utica PEG187BDE installed in 1991. My questions are:

• Should I just wait to install a new boiler to correct the piping?
  
• If I were to preemptively re-pipe the boiler what ballpark labor hours am I looking at? (I am not quite convinced that threading 2-1/4" iron pipe is a DIY job.)
  
• What would be a good high-quality boiler to replace my current one with? (Weil-Mclain, others?)
  
• And lastly, but perhaps most importantly...are there any good or recommended boiler-techs or service companies up near Rochester, NY (western/central new york)?
  

Thanks in advance for everyones' help!

STEVEusaPA

Unless you are realistically replacing in the next year, I would have it piped right, and enjoy the comfort and savings. A true steam pro is going to use unions. When it comes time to replace, it will make the installers job that much easier.

Steamhead

Have that thing repiped NOW. There is no way it will work right the way it is. And, with a little forethought this can be done in such a way that most of the new piping can stay if you have to replace the boiler.

roc_rktec

Any advice on how to pre-emptively repipe it? Should I just follow the Utica installation manual? Steamhead, how many hours of work do you think it would take? Any advice on how to thread the iron pipe?

roc_rktec

As I am an architect...and not a steampro...and there are no recommend contractors within 100 miles of my location. Any detailed advice on how to properly pipe the boiler and make the iron pipe connections would be most appreciated.

Steamhead

That's going to take most of a day. Where exactly are you located?

Brewbeer

I'd estimate one day for an experienced and well equipped pro.

roc_rktec

I am over in Rochester, NY...70 miles east of Buffalo, NY

roc_rktec

I snatched this photo from Hap_Hazzard of his header configuration. I assume Hatterasguy, that this is similar to what you are describing...sorry visual learner at work.

Any recommendations on best practices for preparing and assembling the fittings and pipe sections to ensure a steam-tight assembly? With my side exit risers, should I just be putting a 90 degree elbow..or is a cleanout recommended?

todd_ecr

Use an elbow on one side, and a tee with a plug in the other. The plug will allow service for skimming.

I'm trying to find a good steam guy in Rochester for you. I will post if I get a referral.

roc_rktec

Should I be capping one of the inlets into the old header? I am getting a little confused trying to mate up the header described and pictures above with my existing mains. See this side shot for clarification. Should I just treat the two existing inlets as my two "mains" (the system has three mains, you can see the branch at left?

todd_ecr

I was given Hawn Heating as a referral. You can contact them at (585)482-2499

todd_ecr

Another would be Dave Feldman Heating and Cooling (585)288-2050

Double D

Do you know if your mains are parallel flow, counter flow or a combination of both? Could you post pictures of the 3 mains you're talking about.

roc_rktec

todd_ecr I am aware of both of those companies. Thank you so much for digging into it for me! Double D, I do not know what kind of flow my mains are (must of forgot that part of Dan's book). I will be sure to post photos of the mains soon. In the photo of the side of the boiler above the two large branches on the left (Y right above the left inlet) are two of the mains. Just out of frame to the far right is the third main continuing after the return.

How do I tell if my mains are parallel or counter flow? Where should I take pictures to help diagnose this?

Thank you all so much for all of your help thus far!

Double D

I was guessing the main continuing after the return was maybe a counter flow main. Steam and condensate flowing in opposite directions in the same pipe. Follow that RH main to the end. If the end is the high point ending at the last rad, it may be counter flow. That would explain the return line on the bottom of the main.

Fred

If the end of the is the high point, it his a counterflow. Are all the mains the same way ?(High point at the end of the main after the last radiator) If so, the near boiler piping configuration is different from a parallel flow. Get the manual for you boiler and study how it should be plumbed. If you are going to hire a Pro, make sure you understand what needs to be done so you can understand if the Pro knows what he is doing.

roc_rktec

The two mains at the left of the photo are not counter flow they have a condensate return at the ends of their lines. The third main at the right edge of the photo is a counterflow

roc_rktec

Here are a some better photos to help aid the discussion...
Main #3 (left and background of photo) is counter flow main and feeds two radiators. Main #2 (center foreground of photo) is parallel flow and feeds two radiators. Main #1 (right foreground of photo) is parallel flow and feeds five radiators. With all of that in mind how would I connect up the recommended new header design to the existing mains, considering that there are two inlets? The two inlets are about 30" above the top of the boiler.





Closeup of main "header." Main #3 is in the background.

roc_rktec

My other conundrum is how to properly vent the mains. Both Main #2 and Main #3 only serve two radiators and the branches to these radiators are pretty far apart from one another. Should I be venting each branch? Currently only the three radiator branch of Main #1 (5 total radiators on two branches) has a main line vent. What is the best way to approach installing main line vents on existing piping that does not already have it? Some of the end of the branches also do not have much room for inserting a tapping for the main line vent. See the below photos for clarification.


Diagram of the Existing System (the U's and L's refer to radiators on the upper and lower floor respectively).

Main #3 (counter flow) with its two branches. (Upper right main in diagram)

Main #2 with its two branches (far right and left in photo) Where should the vent go? (Left side Main in diagram)

2 Rad branch of Main #1...where should the vent go? (Bottom right corner in diagram)

Fred

Where are you located? I really think you need to have a set of Proffessional eyes on site to figure out what needs to be done. Just too many variables for anyone to try to redesign/rework that system from a website and with a few pictures. It needs work and a lot of things need to be figured out. Just some friendly advice.

roc_rktec

Rochester, NY 70 miles east of Buffalo, NY

Fred

I don't know if @JohnNY , @EzzyT or @Dave0176 go into Rochester but any one of them would be excellent choices. Let's see what they say.

Abracadabra

Spending any time and effort to fix other issues right now would be a waste of time imho. The copper feeding steam to your mains is so undersized that the velocity is so high water is just getting sucked up into the mains.

Dave0176

Thanks Fred I would but too far, there's has to be a limit.

JohnNY

Travel expenses to Rochester would be impractical for both of us. Sorry, but thank you.

roc_rktec

Seeing as there are few, if any, pros available to do the work within a reasonable distance of Rochester, NY. Is @Hatterasguy 's suggestion of the following a sufficient solution to hooking up a new header and boiler piping to the existing system (see above photo)?

Hatterasguy said:

Interesting what they did there.

"Traditionally", the two mains, which run to different sides of the house, would be piped individually into a header and would NOT be connected to each other.

However, in your case, i would simply leave them connected and insulated and pipe two mains off the new header............one to each of the tappings where the copper currently connects up.

Check the size of those tappings as they determine the pipe size from the header (which determines the size of the tees on the header).

Can anyone give any recommendations on how to tap the existing lines for vents (see above photos and system diagram)?

What kind of problems am I going to run into with having the two parallel flow mains and one counter flow main connected to on another (see above photo)?

@DanHolohan @Steamhead do you guys have any suggestions/recommendations? I want to get this fixed.

Any advice is most welcome...and thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread thus far!

nicholas bonham-carter

Go to the local wholesale plumbing supply houses, and see if the counterman can tell you the names of any steam men in your area. Even a retired man could be useful.
Get one of them to have a look at the situation. I would say that a drop header made of big pipes could be piped into the existing tappings of the mains, and work better than what you have, even though it would not be textbook perfect.
The new pipes could be assembled before the old ones are cut out, to make the heat off period shorter. Most of the pipes could be precut lengths, with just a few cut to length.--NBC

roc_rktec

I assume I will still need to add a vent to the two radiator branch of Main #1, just to avoid having the vents at the end of the other branch of Main #1 causing an imbalance. @Hatterasguy I will attempt to time the radiators on Mains #2 and #3 to see if they are reasonable. I guess, if need be I can always get creative with the radiator vents.

So the question still remains...what is the best practice for tapping in a new main line vent in existing iron piping? And more specifically...where would you locate it in the below pictured situation?

Steamhead

Is that asbestos insulation? If so, it will have to be removed before anyone will work on it.

roc_rktec

@Hatterasguy that is a terrific suggestion. Do you have a photo of this setup?

@Steamhead that is asbestos insulation. We plan to remove it all and replace within the next year or so. I feel pretty confident I can assemble my own dropheader and pipe into the existing taps.

My setup manual for the Utica Boiler says that the header should be a minimum of 24" above the waterline... @Hatterasguy what are the added benefits of increasing this dimension closer to the 36" you suggested? It looks like the existing main taps are roughly 36" above the water line...so I obviously wont be able to quite get there.

I see a lot of setups on here where the boiler piping and drop header are un-insulated...what is the reasoning behind that? From a comfort standpoint I would like to have those areas un-insulated as they do a nice job of heating my basement.

nicholas bonham-carter

I think the bonnet and stem of the valve could be removed, and the bonnet tapped for the threads of the vent.--NBC

MikeyP

@roc_rktec

Who did your install? I am down the road from you in Buffalo and the near boiler piping is very similar to mine, especially with the vent at the beginning of the main. I am trying to find out who originally installed mine in the 90's. They clearly can't follow instructions.

All I could find in my manual was a phone number scribbled down on one of the pages that leads to a supply house.

roc_rktec

@MikeyP Isaac Heating and Air Conditioning installed it. They are huge in Rochester, and are full of knuckleheads. I naively signed up for a two or three year service agreement. Needless to say I am riding it out and then getting someone from the two companies @todd_ecr recommended to me.

I believe my way forward will be to repipe the boiler piping this spring as discussed and then use @Hatterasguy suggestion of venting my mains at the radiator shut-offs where needed, as well as replacing all of my garbage radiator vents which the previous owner put on to replace older Hoffman 1As.

Wish me luck! Thanks especially to @Hatterasguy @todd_ecr @nicholas bonham-carter @Double D @Steamhead and @Fred for all of your help and detailed recommendations.

Double D

If you wanted to use NBC's suggestion of using a local supply house for contractor recommendations, mainly for your service agreement, you could try Irr Supply at 845 Maple St. or the one at 1800 East Main St.

Fred

Keep us posted as you progress!

roc_rktec

Will do.