Utica boiler runs for awhile then shuts down. Very cold week here, please help!

dyeingswan

Hello all. I have a Utica steam boiler model PEG150CDE, manuf. 1994. It was working like a champ until last week when I noticed one of the steam vents on an upstairs radiator was spitting water. I called the contractor who installed the boiler and he said it appeared the boiler was making wet steam. He turned the gas flow up on the gas valve to make it burn hotter. This was when all my trouble began.

First the boiler started tripping its chimney limit switch and shutting down. The boiler repairman advised over the phone to turn the gas flow/pressure back down again. No change. Then he advised unplugging the chimney limit leads and jumpering them. Great! Problem seemed to be fixed. But then, the boiler started shutting itself down again. It will re-fire if turned on and off.

It maybe runs for a day, maybe a number of hours, I don't know because this is an investment property I am working on and no one lives here but I visit almost daily. Anyway last time this happened the Robertshaw 9600 digital thermostat had an "Err" message. I thought maybe the thermostat had decided to go wacko on me so I swapped it out for a simple analog Honeywell thermostat. SAME PROBLEM!! My boiler repairman is having some personal issues in his life and is now unresponsive to calls/texts (to be fair sounds like he is going through some pretty rough stuff). What could possibly be happening here? Michigan weather is in the teens from now until probably March. I suppose I will call another repairman if I have to but really I already paid the first guy for a problem not fixed. Does anyone have any ideas of further diagnostics I can do? I am an auto mechanic with some electronics experience/training but basically I don't know from boilers. And I don't want these new pipes I spent so much money on to freeze.

BobC

If the chimney limit switch your talking about is a spill switch it means you may be spilling combustion products into the building. That includes carbon monoxide and that can kill you

Is there a carbon monoxide alarm down there? I would not go back in there without one. Make sure that chimney isn't blocked!

Post some pics of the boiler and the piping around it.

Bob

Harvey Ramer

Get that safety limit back in place!

You really need a pro on site but here are some of the things that have to happen.

The gas pressure is going to have to be readjusted, with a manometer, to manufacturer specs. The burner should then be tuned with a combustion analyzer. Over firing the burner could damage the boiler block, or start a fire. It certainly won't make your steam dryer and it's dangerous.

Some of the steam heads here can help you work through your steam problem.

You may as well get prepared and take a bunch of pics of the system and post them here.

JUGHNE

If the oil light kept coming on in my car, would you just tell me to remove the bulb? That bulb/engine is less important than the safety he told you to jumper on your boiler. Yes, get the camera out, pictures from back a ways to get all piping abound boiler included.

Fred

I won't speak to the gas pressure or the limit switch. As the other guys on this post who have said, know the risks and the importance of getting the gas pressure back to where it should be and the safety limit switch fixed.
AFTER YOU HAVE DONE THAT: Post some pictures here of the boiler and the near boiler piping above and around it. One of the things I'd check is the Pressuretrol (gray box mounted on a looped pipe, usually on front side of boiler, above the boiler water line. Make sure the Pressuretrol is properly set. The scale on the front should be set to .5 PSI (all the way down) and, inside that unit is a white wheel. That should be set to "1" (number facing you when you stand in front of it) That gives you a Cut-in Pressure of .5 PSI, a Differential of 1 PSI for a Cut-out pressure of 1.5PSI. Take the Pressuretrol off of the pigtail and make sure the tiny orifice inside the treaded hex that mounts to the pigtail is not pluged. Take the pigtail off and clean it out. The pigtails often get clogged and the Pressuretrol can not see the pressure and allows the boiler to build enough pressure that it will spit water out of vents. It can also trap pressure between the Pressuretrol and the clog and prevent the boiler from coming back on with the next call for heat. Make sure the boiler has water, up to its Normal water level. We really need pictures to see what kind of LWCO (Low Water Cut-off) you have, Is there an auto water feeder on the unit? Does the water in the boiler bounce a lot when running? Has there been any plumbing repairs to any of the piping lately that might have put oils in the boiler water and causing it to be very unstable?
Bottom line is, the safeties on the system need to be checked, including the the Limit switches, Damper switches, Pressuretrol/pigtail, the LWCO,

dyeingswan

Wow, thanks for all the responses already! Here is a couple pics of the boiler as well as the chimney limit switch I jumpered (as instructed by the boiler guy - but like I said boiler still shuts down) and the gas valve. Unit is a standing pilot. I think the limit switch on the flue is a draft activated one but draft is apparently good (boiler guy said light a cigarette, stick it under flue and see if smoke is sucked up. It was. So boiler is at least drafting some and not exhausting all over house. Whether enough I don't know?

Jamie Hall

Oops... as has been said, plug that chimney limit switch back in. Next thing to do is get a burner tech. out there to get the gas pressure correct and readjust the air. Then, assuming the boiler still keeps kicking out, find out which safety is tripping. If it is the chimney limit switch, that is very dangerous indeed, and the cause must be found. If this was something an abrupt change, it suggests that something is wrong with the chimney or exhaust vent.

It does sound very much as though there may be another safety tripping. All things considered, I'd start with the safeties involved in the combustion process and go from there.

And do all this with a CO detector there!

Fred

Here is a couple pics of the boiler @dyeingswan , no pictures???

dyeingswan

Apologies... Having trouble uploading pics from my iPhone. Stay tuned, will post these as soon as I get home to my computer.

BobC

There seems to be a problem uploading from a mobile device, some do succeed but I don't know the trick that makes it work.

Bob

dyeingswan

Pics...

dyeingswan

Fred said:

ITake the Pressuretrol off of the pigtail and make sure the tiny orifice inside the treaded hex that mounts to the pigtail is not pluged. Take the pigtail off and clean it out. The pigtails often get clogged and the Pressuretrol can not see the pressure and allows the boiler to build enough pressure that it will spit water out of vents. It can also trap pressure between the Pressuretrol and the clog and prevent the boiler from coming back on with the next call for heat. Make sure the boiler has water, up to its Normal water level. We really need pictures to see what kind of LWCO (Low Water Cut-off) you have, Is there an auto water feeder on the unit? Does the water in the boiler bounce a lot when running? Has there been any plumbing repairs to any of the piping lately that might have put oils in the boiler water and causing it to be very unstable?
Bottom line is, the safeties on the system need to be checked, including the the Limit switches, Damper switches, Pressuretrol/pigtail, the LWCO,

Hi Fred, it so happens I do have a spare Pressuretrol switch which I purchased because the one that came with the used boiler was missing its cover. What part is the pigtail that we are talking about cleaning? Could you post a pic with a little circle or arrow? Do I need to drain the boiler before I take the switch off the pipe fitting? I see the wheel part inside and the settings seem to be what you suggest. I keep a careful eye on the water level (it has no auto feeder but I check it every day or 2 in the winter and manually fill). And yes the water bounces a ton. My boiler tech said this was surging due to dirty pipes or something (house was built 1922) and we put some 8 way in which helped a bit but not much.

BobC

We are concerned about that defeated spill switch because if it is spilling combustion gasses into the cellar it will have no odor and it will kill you. Jumping it out for a test is ok but it has to be replaced before running the boiler. If the new switch opens up you have a problem that has to be fixed before running the boiler, you would be surprised at what can fall into and block a chimney.

The pigtail is below the pressuretrol, it can get gunked up over time and has to be cleaned out or replaced. It is above the waterline so you should only get a bit of water when removing it but I would cover the LWCO below it so you don't get any water into it. Once you unscrew the pressuretrol you can blow into the open pigtail to check if it's open, they should be cleaned out every year.

That boiler probably needs to be flushed and then skimmed to clean up it's water. A bouncing waterline indicates dirty water. Your pressuretrol looks like it's set too high, turn the front setting all the way down and make sure the inside white wheel is set to 1.

Bob

todd_ecr

please restore all safety devices to their original factory condition. Failure to do so could result in serious injury or death.

As far as the system goes, the boiler is piped totally wrong and the water in it is very dirty.

dyeingswan

todd_ecr said:

please restore all safety devices to their original factory condition. Failure to do so could result in serious injury or death.



As far as the system goes, the boiler is piped totally wrong and the water in it is very dirty.

Amazingly it passed a city inspection in the summer before it went into service in the fall, as you can see by the "Approved" sticker on it lol. The water in it was quite clear, greenish from some Surgex but clear. After boiler repairman added the 8-way to help the surging issue it got nasty again. He said that's because it's working to eat the rust in the system. I did drain and refill it once. Will do so again.

As far as the chimney limit, you all will be relieved to know that there is no one living in property right now. It's sufficiently drafty in house that I don't think I will succumb to CO fumes during my short daily check-in visits. But I have to leave it jumpered for a minute until I can get another repair person in (probably am gonna try a larger company who might have the gas pressure tool) to check it out. The jumper does not fix the shutdown problem but the boiler does run for a lot longer if it's jumpered. It's 12 degrees F today.

KC_Jones

Passing city inspection just means it won't blow the house up, they haven't a clue about piping a boiler properly so they don't "inspect" that. The piping is MASSIVELY wrong. As far as the safeties, if you get enough CO you could walk in the house go in the basement and drop dead in minutes or at least pass out then die a short time later. This isn't a joke or anything to be taken lightly. So while you are in there for a short time that doesn't matter. Ask pros on here about wearing CO detectors and how fast they can go off. In your situation with a gas valve that has been messed with this situation becomes even worse. Also I might add regardless of personal problems any "pro" that suggested something like that is completely clueless when it comes to steam. If you have wet steam it's because of the screwed up piping not the burner output. That doesn't make any sense in any way shape or form. Also to reiterate the piping is completely wrong, I can't find anything that the contractor did correctly. Find the manual for that boiler and you will see what we mean. It in all likelihood will never work correctly the way it's piped and will probably cost you a bunch in high fuel bills as a result.

dyeingswan

Sigh. Sure was a cheap install. Boiler plus 12 radiators, $1600. Boiler and radiators purchased as good used units. Drama = endless. Ok I will not rehire my guy. As you can tell was just trying to stay in budget. As soon as I get a "second opinion" I will post findings and hopefully all this will help someone having a similar problem. Will leave back hall door cracked when visiting the "scene." It leads right to basement. My auto shop teacher always said it was vey difficult for CO to kill you with the presence of an oxygen inlet in the form of an open window or door.

KC_Jones

Also as far as cleaning the boiler, it needs to be skimmed. Cleaners won't do it, skimming needs to be done on any new install or when piping changes are made. Also we don't discuss pricing on this site.

Jamie Hall

You shop teacher was an optimist.

Turn that boiler off and leave it off until you get professional help. No if's, ands, or buts

captainco

Your auto shop teacher is a moron. An open window will do nothing to protect you from CO poisoning unless you stick your head out it.

Wet steam is cause by a dirty boiler. The water treatment has probably filled the boiler with sludge and now you are getting carry-over or wet steam. The boiler needs to be flushed and re-filled.

Smoke testing the drafthood does not mean flue gases are venting, just room air. Based on the fact the limit in the drafthood was tripping is a good sign flue gases were spilling.

CO may not kill you but it can cause permanent disabilities and you will wish you were dead. I know people that have been seriously poisoned working on rooftop equipment.

You saved on the installation but now the repairs may cost just as much. Get a contractor that is recommended. If they don't have a combustion analyzer tell them to leave!!!

Robert O'Connor_12

If you do nothing else, please get a quality 110 volt plug in CO detector and install near the appliance. When you call for service, please let them know you've jumped the spill switch BEFORE they enter the property.
You're flirting with disaster there fella, be careful!

Robert O'Connor/NJ

dyeingswan

When I first got this boiler installed the draft switch was totally missing. It ran like that all last winter and thankfully I managed not to pass away during my many days working there. Its missing condition was only brought to my attention by the city boiler inspector in the summertime. So I called this dude whose work you are all saying is lousy and he installed and connected the switch. Like I said it ran fine with no tripping until gas pressure was messed with. The repairman said we could try to change it to a switch with a higher limit? The way he was talking I thought he meant temp limit? We are absolutely sure this is s draft sensor and not some temp sensor? It has a red piece of plastic in the back. Sorry I talked about money. I just wanted to see if you all thought the cheapness was worrisome.

KC_Jones

dyeingswan said:

When I first got this boiler installed the draft switch was totally missing.

A pro wouldn't have left this.

dyeingswan said:

I just wanted to see if you all thought the cheapness was worrisome.

It's very worrisome and even more so that a person is taking peoples money and claiming to be a professional. All the things you have said about him clearly point to the opposite. Not trying to beat you up just want it to be clear that these types of things should be completely unacceptable.

todd_ecr

The spill switch is a manual reset temperature switch. It opens at 290 deg. It does not sense draft. In a blocked vent condition, the flue gasses will 'spill' out of the draft hood, causing the switch to trip, shutting the burner down.

Carbon Monoxide is nothing to mess around with. Type those words into the search box here on HH. You will find threads and links to real life events where people have been sickened and unfortunately killed to due to CO poisoning.

ChrisJ

It's hard to tell via text, but do I sense sarcasm? "It ran like that all last winter and thankfully I managed not to pass away during my many days working there."


It's your life, just please don't allow anyone else in the building.
Shut the boiler off and get an actual professional in there. This isn't a joke.

DanHolohan

And the boiler is piped incorrectly, which is probably adding to the wet-steam problem.

I don't understand why you're arguing with people who are trying to keep you alive. This is a very unsafe situation. Please do as they say. This is not something to take lightly.

Dave in QCA

Thanks Dan!

dyeingswan

I'm not arguing at all! Sorry if I came off that way. I'm very thankful for the advice and I am taking it all into account. A different boiler person is coming tonight to check things out. I wanted to try to adjust the settings back myself but if I need a special tool for the gas pressure plus a combustion analyzer then I am not gonna be able to, much as I am an ardent DIY'er.

DanHolohan

Sorry. "Arguing" was a poor choice of words. You're not arguing; you just don't appear to be hearing what these very sharp heating professionals from all across the country are trying to tell you, and that is that you're liable to die if you continue on your current course of being in that building with an untuned burner, the safeties jumped out, without a CO detector. This is foolish and extremely dangerous.

I realize you're trying to save a few bucks here, but is it worth dying for?

dyeingswan

Well hopefully the new dude can solve the issue because work must continue at this house. Wish someone had a Detroit area recommendation. Why is it that so few HVAC techs want to work on boilers anymore?

ChrisJ

dyeingswan said:

Well hopefully the new dude can solve the issue because work must continue at this house. Wish someone had a Detroit area recommendation. Why is it that so few want to work anymore?

Fixed that for you.

Fred

Didn't we find a Steam Pro in the Detroit area last season? Anyone remember who that was?

DanHolohan

I did a steam seminar there last year for more than 100 contractors. I mentioned the crying need for steam pros in the area and how much business we could send their way if they just got listed in Find a Contractor, but none did.

I sure thought they would. No-brainer, right?

Fred

Sure seems like a No-Brainer.

DanHolohan

Same thing with Connecticut. Crazy-rich people in Greenwich with steam-heated mansions. Can I give them some names? Please, please, please?

Not a single contractor is listed. One steps up and owns that business.

In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is king.

KC_Jones

If a good steam contractor in Detroit exists and they listed on here, we could probably make their Christmas....forever. I guess some people don't like money, or perhaps it's growing the business?

DanHolohan

Crazy, right?

Dave in QCA

@Dan Holohan I just checked for quad cities listings, ... Nothing. Ill see if we can do something about that.

DanHolohan

Thanks, Dave. We make money for people. Just imagine how many building owners ask me for recommendations.

dyeingswan

Ok, here comes the ending of this saga. Different boiler guys came and reset gas pressure with a manometer. And the problem was....... (Drumroll)...... A bad damper motor! The boiler would run a cycle. But when the thermostat called for more heat on the next cycle, the bad motor wasn't making the contacts. When I turned the boiler switch on and off the damper would rotate in the absence of power back to where the contacts would hit again. So boiler would fire on reset. Because i am an obsessive gadget saving pack rat it so happened I had a spare motor of the same brand attached to an 8 inch damper (boiler's is 6 inch). Turns out they were interchangeable. This was why the draft limit was tripping too I'm guessing. I would imagine damper was sticking partially closed.

Sort of frustrated I couldn't have diagnosed that myself. Would have saved a rather hefty service fee. I do believe I have had enough of boilers this week but when I am ready to deal, I am going to try cleaning the pigtail and orifice on the pressuretrol switch to see if it solves my wet steam issue, as was kindly suggested. On that note - how do you unscrew the pressuretrol from the pigtail? It looks like in order for the fitting to turn I have to remove the 4 small screws attaching a push rod kind of thing plus the fitting to the bottom of the housing, is that right? Otherwise the turning housing won't clear the side of the boiler.

Fred

Don't take those 4 screws off. There is a free floating pellet in there that is centered on a diaphram that trips the switch when the diaphram moves in an upward direction. Turn that TEE that the Pressure gauge is mounted on maybe a quarter turn and that should give you the clearance you need to turn the Pressuretrol off of the Pigtail. Use a wrench on the hex at the bottom of the Pressuretrol. Twisting the body of the Pressuretrol to turn it off will ruin the unit. make sure the scale on the front of the Pressuretrol is set to .5 PSI (bottom of scale and the white wheel inside the Pressuretrol is set to " 1" facing the front of the unit. Can't quite make out the front scale but it looks like it may be set higher than it should.