Forced hot air is amazing

SWEI

Tangentialists unite!

njtommy

Hashtag forcedhotdustmatters. Lol

KC_Jones

#radiantandminisplits

njtommy

Mini splits are great till you have problems with them. Then it's a headache and hurry up and wait for parts.

Mark Eatherton

I had a sting ray just like Gordy's.

When I was teaching hydronics, I told them that the good Lord must love hydronics because the Earth is 3/4
s covered with water. A small voice in the back of the room said "WRONG, he's a forced error fan, 'cause the Earth is 100 % covered with air..." Caught me by surprise. He ended up going on to teach the metal duct work classes for the same school. Great guy and very conscientious crafts man.

I can count the benefits of forced error on two fingers.

I, If the duct leaks, it won't do thousands of dollars of damage.
2. Nothing says fall like the smell of burning dust first thing in the morning on a slightly frosty autumn day... Brings back great memories, said no one...

Did any of you guys ever put playing cards held by clothes pins in your spokes?? My mother hated me. I kept messing with her solitare games...

ME

ChrisJ

Interesting.
If a steam pipe leaks it typically doesn't do thousands in damage either.

Zman

njtommy said:

We all know how much Chris hates forced air, but it has its place.

How do you dry your hair?....

Mark Eatherton

Zman said:

njtommy said:

We all know how much Chris hates forced air, but it has its place.

How do you dry your hair?....

What's hair???

ME

ChrisJ

@Zman like a man. I use a steamer

In all seriousness I don't dry my hair.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Pros:
1. Scorched air doesn't freeze... you do in the off cycles instead
2. Forced dust is fast to respond...did I put that in the right list?

Cons: FHA is fast to respond, ummmm and all the rest of that stuff that is cheap and bad and uncomfortable and dusty and loud and expensive to operate and cheap and bad and loud.

TS

Harvey Ramer

Forced air blows. Pun intended.

Gordy

Mark Eatherton said:

I had a sting ray just like Gordy's.

Did any of you guys ever put playing cards held by clothes pins in your spokes?? My mother hated me. I kept messing with her solitare games...

ME

The playing cards, and the leather strap with reflector that hung around the spoke axel. Tink, ta Tink to tink all the way down the street. The generator head light was always a cool accessory.

Gordy

I do love my boot drier........

Rich_49

Nothing possesses the ability to spread fire and potentially fatal fumes and gases to every corner of the building in an amazingly short period of time .
Did you ever go into a home where the tin man boasted he had a return in every room ? One such idiot included the bathrooms , the family that farts together stays together .

hot_rod

It doesn't need to be an either or choice wet heat/ hydronics or FA.
To maintain a healthy space you need some air movement and certainly ventilation after cooking or bathing.

I'd say with super efficient structures, air movement has become even more critical.

The variable speed FA systems, properly installed are quiet and comfortable.

To humidify or dehumidify, filter, and provide efficient ACH you need to have some sort of air moved.

Now with VRF systems it is becoming even more important that you pay attention to, and learn how to coexist with air movement systems and see where the wet heads will still have a place.

Gordy

I would not catagorize an HRV, or ERV with forced air heating. Controlled ventilation, and fresh air exchange yes.

I live in a 50's ranch. My fresh air exchange is automatic every time the boiler kicks on, ventilation fans, clothes dryer, or the masonary fireplace is burning.

Jack

ChrisJ said:

Jack said:

When I first saw it and your name, I decided that I wouldn't even bother opening it. I knew what it was. Irresistibly, I was drawn in. I couldn't avoid it. It is exactly what I'd expect from you!

Unsure if this is a compliment, or an insult.

C'mon man, just joking!

Rich_49

Dedicated Outdoor Air Systems should not be confused nor put in the same category as Forced Hot Air Heating . DOAS mostly operates in the hardly any air being moved realm . 100 - 200 CFM in an average well built 2500 sf home has nowhere the effect of a 900 - 1200 CFM forced air ducted system . Ventilation systems should also remain separate from heating / cooling , that's why it's called DOAS .

Factor in the FACT that tin knockers are less well educated than wetheads ( in general , no one need comment that they are offended) and those who do care to do it right still cannot recognize that their computer programs will not reconcile lower flow rates that are needed to design and install what Bob has described . What Bob has described will have a lower ESP than .5" and really well done systems will be around .3" .

It cannot be easily zoned well without causing problems unless you run multiple AHUs . Duct bypass can be an challenge to properly institute

FranklinD

Let's see if I can cover all the bases in this thread:

Our first computer (my folks got it when I was 8) was a 'custom built' IBM 8088 with a 20mb HD,
5.25" floppy, a 3.5" double-density floppy, and a 4 color monitor later upgraded to VGA (by sticking a 16 bit card in an 8 bit expansion slot - it worked). It ran at 9 MHz til I found the DOS command for speed boost, then the power light changed to orange and she ran at 12 MHz. I still have the beast, and she still works...I remember playing Street Rod 2 and Microsoft Flight Simulator (the first version) on it nonstop. It's interesting to see that there is no central processor...just rows and rows of identical chips.

I recall it cost about $2400. The next machine was a 486DX/40 with a modem and CD-ROM.

We were the 17th customer of high-speed cable internet in our city (I thank my parents to this day for being early technology adopters). That was a magical day...we had a first gen Pentium by that time. The first song file I downloaded using the cable modem, at (I think) 7 meg/sec speeds, was an amazing thing to behold after years of dial up.

Anyway....I grew up with Gravity hot water...the giant original coal boiler, oil gun, 3000 gallon in-ground tank, and gravity circulation stayed in place until the fall of 1997. And it heated beautifully. Now there is a WM 174k beast with an NRF-22 in its place.

When my wife was pregnant, we rented a house not far from my folk's house that had scorched air heating...I hated that house. It was 1100 sq feet and the furnace HAD to be oversized. It would literally run for 3 minutes, off for 3, all day and night. Our first winter, it was -18 for 3 weeks and our following gas bill was $500. Merry Xmas to us! We lived there for 5 years while we tried to save money for our own house. I still remember the whistling of the vents waking me up every morning, bringing with it my allergies flaring up for an hour or so. I should've bought stock in Claritin in those years.

Forced air has its place...anywhere but my house.

ChrisJ

We had a cable modem installed in 1998 specifically for Half Life multiplayer.

My first game of Team Fortress Classic lasted 26 hours non stop except for bathroom breaks and to grab a drink in between maps. Now, I can make it maybe an hour tops before I need to get up and do something productive.

Steve Minnich

hot rod said:

It doesn't need to be an either or choice wet heat/ hydronics or FA.
To maintain a healthy space you need some air movement and certainly ventilation after cooking or bathing.

I'd say with super efficient structures, air movement has become even more critical.

The variable speed FA systems, properly installed are quiet and comfortable.

To humidify or dehumidify, filter, and provide efficient ACH you need to have some sort of air moved.

Now with VRF systems it is becoming even more important that you pay attention to, and learn how to coexist with air movement systems and see where the wet heads will still have a place.

A voice of reason. Thank you.

hot_rod

Rich said:

Dedicated Outdoor Air Systems should not be confused nor put in the same category as Forced Hot Air Heating . DOAS mostly operates in the hardly any air being moved realm . 100 - 200 CFM in an average well built 2500 sf home has nowhere the effect of a 900 - 1200 CFM forced air ducted system . Ventilation systems should also remain separate from heating / cooling , that's why it's called DOAS .

Factor in the FACT that tin knockers are less well educated than wetheads ( in general , no one need comment that they are offended) and those who do care to do it right still cannot recognize that their computer programs will not reconcile lower flow rates that are needed to design and install what Bob has described . What Bob has described will have a lower ESP than .5" and really well done systems will be around .3" .

It cannot be easily zoned well without causing problems unless you run multiple AHUs . Duct bypass can be an challenge to properly institute

My experience is that HVAC contractors are much better versed in control wiring, and wiring in general. Maybe because hydronics often have two wire t-sats, while HVAC controls have 5 or more and AC wiring involves 24- 240V wiring knowledge. they tend to have better test meters also.

I think the refrigeration side of HVAC requires HVAC guys to have more knowledge, training, and troubleshooting.

I also feel the HVAC industry has done a better job with training installers both factory and group like NCI, etc.

Most often hydronic installers are plumbers or have that background. So they know pipe fitting but not always the finer points of hydronic design and sizing.

A hack is a hack regardless of the discipline, that hasn't seemed to change much over the years.

Too bad the air side industry cannot shed the "forced" part, as in forced air FA.
The word force in itself sounds like you are trying to make something happen that really doesn't want to.

Comfort systems can apply to both air or wet side technology.

Steve Minnich

Back in the 80's I was a union tinner and I'm not offended by what anyone thinks of a tin knocker's intellect, especially Rich. My moniker on this very site back in the day was Tinman.

I've also been a licensed electrician since the 80's and so have many, many other HVAC contractors. They have to be in order to do their jobs. And it's not an easy test to pass by any means but I took it so I wouldn't have to hire an electrician any time I ran 240 volts to a condensing unit or air handler. If you're a contractor who pulls permits in my area, you better have an electrical license.

My passion has been hot water heat for at least 25 years now but I respect all the trades from rough to trim carpenters, fitters, tinners, electricians, tile guys, and the guys who make magic with drywall mud.

Everything looks easy until you try it yourself.

Fred

Does anyone remember the acoustic couplers that you cradled your phone ( handset) into to communicate with another device? You called the other party first to let them know you were sending something and then each party put the phone in the cradle to transmit.
My first PC was an ADDS Multivision, DOS operating system. Did virtually nothing
My first cell phone was about the size of an old VHS Player. It had a strap so you could carry it over your shoulder. The handset was corded. Weighed probably 5lbs.

MarkS

Fred said:

Does anyone remember the acoustic couplers that you cradled your phone ( handset) into to communicate with another device?

My first real computer experience was in high school. We had access to a 10 cps teletype terminal with a paper tape reader. The terminal linked to an HP-3000 time-share computer at a local university using one of those acoustic couplers. 300 baud, if I recall correctly.

Fred

@MarkS You do recall correctly, 300 Baud, Lol

ChrisJ

Now days 300 baud wouldn't handle @MarkS s light switches