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Big fat boiler in progress

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  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,777
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    smh= shaking my head.

    I used bushings on my WM EG-45 (now an EG-40) but it was within the boiler's specifications and I used both outlets which I didn't have to.

    Going up a bit and then going to a reducer is better but like I said earlier, there's thousands of ways to get the same job done. Just because one guy's way is different doesn't make it wrong.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    JohnNY said:

    Yes. Two equalizers.
    I'm using the piping specs for the 211A-08

    @JohnNY which manual is that from? The I&O manuals for Peerless I've installed show a second equalizer only from -16 and up. Just wondering, cause I installed a -9 a month ago with a single equalizer. Maybe boiler I got had an older manual? Dunno.. Always thought that the 2nd equalizer was to help balance the pressure across the header on longer headers, but then you see WM not recommend a 2nd equalizer on even longer headers... so.. *shrug*
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
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    Thanks Chris for the explanation.A gent as always.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
    edited January 2016
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    JohnNY said:

    Yes. Two equalizers.
    I'm using the piping specs for the 211A-08

    @JohnNY which manual is that from? The I&O manuals for Peerless I've installed show a second equalizer only from -16 and up. Just wondering, cause I installed a -9 a month ago with a single equalizer. Maybe boiler I got had an older manual? Dunno.. Always thought that the 2nd equalizer was to help balance the pressure across the header on longer headers, but then you see WM not recommend a 2nd equalizer on even longer headers... so.. *shrug*
    Peerless's literature leaves a lot to be desired, @Abracadabra. I've found that out the hard way a few times.
    What I posted is a screenshot from the "Catalog Literature", which my rep said is their best piping spec sheet.
    But you're right. The I&O manual contradicts some of their other diagrams and tables.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Manual calls for a single 5" riser. Gateway installed two 4" risers for ~28% more area.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
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    Yeah, and at significant material cost. But it's gonna look pretty and that's important.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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    Bob Bona_4SWEI
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
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    Im sorry but i am with Chris.How much material was saved,why not use a full 6inch tapping its given to you.Manuals are for minimum specs.You use a 6 inch header anyway.The drop header will save you no doubt but my initial question was if you kept with a full 6 inch tapping and piped "to boilers Specs" could you have eliminated drop header.What would the result have been.Even better keep everything full size to drop header.What did you save.I am asking out of curiousity not a knock on the install.Looking pretty is beautiful functionality is more important.At Dans seminar we all saw the glass fired steamer and its unbelievable what goes on in those pipes.
    @Hatterasguy and @ChrisJ am I that far off here.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    At full tilt and 1 PSI, the 211A-7 would push 40 FPS through each riser and 25 FPS in the header.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
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    jonny88 said:

    Im sorry but i am with Chris.How much material was saved,why not use a full 6inch tapping its given to you.Manuals are for minimum specs.You use a 6 inch header anyway.The drop header will save you no doubt but my initial question was if you kept with a full 6 inch tapping and piped "to boilers Specs" could you have eliminated drop header.What would the result have been.Even better keep everything full size to drop header.What did you save.I am asking out of curiousity not a knock on the install.Looking pretty is beautiful functionality is more important.At Dans seminar we all saw the glass fired steamer and its unbelievable what goes on in those pipes.
    @Hatterasguy and @ChrisJ am I that far off here.

    Who is talking about "saving" anything? When did that become the point of this post?
    How many drop headers do we see on here that were done for no reason whatsoever. I chose to do it this way. Why is this bothering you?
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
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    Bob Bona_4
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
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    You're funny.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
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  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    Sounding like the 25 Taco pumps post. Carry on.
    JohnNYSWEIJUGHNE
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
    edited January 2016
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    How are you doing, @Bob ?
    It's funny. I got two messages today from people that want to have a professional conversation about the "great installation job" my company is doing on this 211A, thanking me for posting the pics, and telling me they stopped posting on The Wall because they don't feel they're communicating with their professional peers and spending too much time fielding comments from the same 6 people that post non-stop, in nearly every thread.

    The Wall has always gone through this since its inception.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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    Bob Bona_4
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
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    John I am trying to take in everything here on this site and there is a lot to learn.Its not bothering me in the slightest.You cant learn if you don't ask questions thats all.Sorry for asking a ? Bob didnt realize it was taken out of context.Again as I said beautiful install and please show us the venting.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    Jeez, you guys are starting to sound like the Republican debates. JohnNY does some of the best work I have ever seen, and I've seen, and written about, plenty.

    I'd trust him with any project. This one looks good to me.
    Retired and loving it.
    Bob Bona_4TinmanSWEI
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
    edited January 2016
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    No, we can't go back to what once was, sweet as it was, because of current regulations on efficiency. I've been talking about that for my whole career. Thanks for reading me, and for bringing it up yet again. We work with what we have, not what we'd like to have.
    Retired and loving it.
    Bob Bona_4SWEI
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,777
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    Jeez, you guys are starting to sound like the Republican debates. JohnNY does some of the best work I have ever seen, and I've seen, and written about, plenty.



    I'd trust him with any project. This one looks good to me.

    Though it is true, you said to always use ALL tappings and use them at full size.

    :(
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    jonny88
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
    edited January 2016
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    The stats say Hatterasguy joined in November 2014. He's got 3,190 posts as of this moment. That's 8 posts per day for 400 days.
    He just has to post or I guess he'll stop breathing. He just sent me a private message saying my work is "below any level of acceptability by any measure". Good stuff, right?

    By comparison, I've got 1,600 posts since 2003.
    I guess I need to stop running a 40-year-old boiler service, installation and maintenance company, and a new consulting business, so that I can spend more time commenting on other people's work on the internet having merely a marginal amount of information about the jobs.
    I post here because I'm an advertiser and a professional and my participation is both valid and an appropriate way to further my business.

    Well done, Hatteragsuy. Let me know next time my pursuit in making a living interferes with your day.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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    Robert O'Brien
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
    edited January 2016
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    Chis, as many as you can, sure. But that's where the industry gets into a debate. Some boiler manufacturers will call for so many risers, while others will call for fewer. The contractor then faces competitive challenges that could make or break the sale. We all have to deal with the real world, but the proof is in the way the job preforms when delivered to the customer. There are many steam-piping techniques used that many people just don't get to achieve the maximum efficiency.

    John is my Brother in the General Society of Mechanics and Tradesman of the City of New York, founded in 1795. He, along with James Gallo, Alex Weiss, and I, are in the midst of taking the GSMT's iconic NYC building back to where it should be, and doing so in simple ways of the Dead Men that have too long been ignored. We will cut that building's fuel bill in half when we're done, and I will write about it. We know what we're doing.

    People buy what the system does, not what the system is. In John I trust.
    Retired and loving it.
    SWEI
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
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    My question stands. And so does my follow up. I'm fully exposed here. My name. My company. My license number.My phone number.
    Who are you? What is your name? What is your company?
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    JohnNY said:

    My question stands. And so does my follow up. I'm fully exposed here. My name. My company. My license number.My phone number.
    Who are you? What is your name? What is your company?

    Gotta say, I've wondered about that myself. How about it, Hat? Ready to step out from behind the curtain?
    Retired and loving it.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    I've been here since 2008 and have seen nothing but excellence and professionalism from @JohnNY

    Bob Bona_4JohnNYSWEI
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
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    JohnNY said:

    My question stands. And so does my follow up. I'm fully exposed here. My name. My company. My license number.My phone number.
    Who are you? What is your name? What is your company?

    Gotta say, I've wondered about that myself. How about it, Hat? Ready to step out from behind the curtain?
    Most know who I am. You do as well. I had the pleasure of speaking with you again on Wednesday.

    Clearly he doesn't. Right?
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    Then just say your name. A simple request between adults.
    Retired and loving it.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
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    I sent you a PM regarding the matter.

    Wow.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    Got that. I think you should step out for the rest of the men and women. Be proud of who you are, sir.
    Retired and loving it.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,479
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    I've followed JohnNY on this forum for several years and although I'm not a tradesman I recognize good work when I see it. I'd be proud to have one of his installs in my basement.

    If I may, I think this comes down to what could be done vs what is done under the pressure of the current market. Everybody has a budget in mind when a boiler has to be replaced and the installer has to walk a fine line between what could be done and what will work and be acceptable from a budgetary point of view.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
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    Thank you @BobC.
    Again, this configuration is represented one of the manuals, and there is another arrangement of piping out of frame that makes it all make a bit more sense. My installation is solid.
    My job will perform flawlessly and my clients will be more than satisfied when they hand over final payment.
    Know how I know? Because that's how all my jobs go.
    In an industry that works on the profit margins we have available to us, we haven't got another choice.
    Again, thank you.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    edited January 2016
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    I think everyone should represent their real names. Many go by some awesome nicknames like Hot Rod and Ironman but their given names are listed right below their aliases for all to see.

    Rich and I bump heads from time to time but it's nice knowing who you're dealing with.

    Anonymity is a must in some places, not so much here.
    Steve Minnich
    JohnNYRPK
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
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    Thanks, Brian.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    Thanks, Brian. Welcome to HeatingHelp.com. Thanks for stepping up.
    Retired and loving it.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    Amen!
    Retired and loving it.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,889
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    Well, now that I've had a chance to sit back and read all the comments, I'll say John did a good job.

    Remember, the velocity in the risers from the boiler to the new drop header must be kept low to keep water from coming up with the steam. The 4-inch pipe between the two headers can use a higher velocity, and as the steam makes the sharp turn from the 6-inch drop header to the 4-inch connector it will tend to shed any water traveling with it, which will roll down to the equalizer.

    Also, since the old header is still there, if any water gets past the new drop header- which is unlikely- the old header will finish the job of separation.

    We've used this "double-header" arrangement several times where an old header was still there and was sized properly. It works nicely.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    SWEI
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,231
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    Thanks, Frank. This boiler uses the same end sections for 20 sizes of heat exchanger. The output of the 7 section doesn't nearly necessitate using two full sized tappings. That's from the manufacturer. As an installer, I'm thankful to keep the purchase of 6" fittings under control. Again, I piped for the 8-section and the second header is 6" with multiple 4" take-offs.
    I'm covered nicely.
    The double header is a favorite of mine when doing an EDR calculation that allows me to reduce a replacement boiler by several sizes. The headers are always oversized for the new boiler, yet often not located to match up with the new header, so I'll use 'em both. Works great. Just costs me a little more insulation up front.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
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    LionA29
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 442
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    JohnNY, do you have pics of the completed install? Does this boiler have the new and improved Hi-Lo fire option on it?
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,103
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    Beautiful Job as usual Johnny. Never mind comments from the peanut gallery. Mad Dog
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,103
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    Absolutely, Frank. Me too. Why wouldn't you utilize existing piping that will only aid dry steam production? Again, great job bro. Mad Dog