Quarts of water shooting out of steam radiator air valve while heating up - after 5 months of fixes

getpeace

I moved into a 100+ year-old two-family house a year ago, and I have had issues with the existing steam heat system. After five months of fixes, including replacing steam pipes (with USA made pipes) and radiator air vents, the issues are still not resolved. It's a natural-gas fired, steam heat boiler in the basement, and there are six radiators. Three on the first floor and three on the second floor. There are also three pipes that get hot and deliver heat.

Last winter the system hammered very loudly during heating and several radiators leaked by the air vents and the open/close valve. I set up all sorts of pans underneath to catch the water. I had a handyman change the valves but that didn't make a difference. The sight glass was always at full. I had many sleepless nights last winter because the hammering would wake me up in the middle of the night on those 30-20 degree nights when the heat had to come on.

Since this summer, I've had four people come through, and I made their recommended changes, which are in the pictures. First, there were leaks in the steam pipes that caused two pin-hole-sized leaks, and I replaced those pipes. The handyman sealed up leaks near the open/close valves and changed a couple more air vents. Then, I replaced the pipes above the steam heat boiler to fix the pitch. After that, three times, I emptied out the boiler several times via the water valve. A lot of murky water came out. Eventually, clear water would come out, but after running the heating system once the water from the boiler comes out murky again. Recently, a boiler guy came and emptied out the boiler and did a boiler blow down (I think), and he checked the boiler system, emptied out the sight glass several times, and checked the flame. He did this for about 5 hours each time over two separate days. He also replaced the air vents on the six radiators, with the ones on the first floor with smaller openings and the second floor fitted with air vents with larger openings. He also checked the pressure on the boiler (set at 0.5) and opened all the radiator valves. But water still gushes out of two radiators through the air vents and it hammers when the heat comes on, and the water rises above level in the sight glass after it heats to the desired temperature which is either 72 or 74 or 76. Yesterday, I called Dunkirk and the gentleman on the phone recommended insulating any steam pipes I can see in the basement. He thought the hammering and water shooting out of the air vent might be linked and due to water getting cooled quickly in the pipes.

At this moment, the water in the boiler's sight glass will go up and down during heating. However, after the desired temperature has been reached the water in the sight glass will sit either full to the top or a half-inch above the water level line. As the heating comes on about a quart or so of water comes gushing out of one radiator's air valve on the first floor and a radiator air valve on the second floor. I don't leave the house when heating comes on because it will flood the floor around the radiator or I am trying to keep the heat in the mid 60s if I am not at home. It also hammers when the heat comes on.

Please advise what I am not diagnosing or what can be done? I've already spent a lot of time and money on this and it's very stressful and worrying especially going into 30 degree and below days that are coming up. I am deeply appreciative of what steam heat experts have to say. Seemingly, not many of you in NY.

pecmsg

Where in NY

KC_Jones

Also pictures from the other side so we can see the return piping. Do you know if this is a couterflow or a parallel flow system?

Jamie Hall

Pictures of the near boiler piping would be helpful -- but what I see is not encouraging, as I don't see any header at all. I hope I missed it.

Water hammer is always caused by water (!) being in a steam main or runout where it can be hustled along by the steam and hit something. Therefore, it is caused either by so much water getting into the mains from a poorly piped boiler that you have a problem, or it is caused by sags in the mains or runouts or sections of pipe which have the wrong pitch.

I don't see much in what you have had done which is going to help the hammering...

I do see one problem which might, and which needs to be addressed (it may have the same cause): the high water level in the boiler. The water should not vary more than an inch or two when the boiler is steaming, and shouldn't be more than an inch or two higher when the boiler is cold than when it is steaming -- and certainly shouldn't be above the gauge glass. Would you comment further on where the water level is, and how it varies?

Dave in QCA

From what I can see in your photos, the near boiler piping is wrong. It appears that your system may be a counter flow system, (steam main slope up away from the boiler) but it is not clear, an it may be a parallel flow system (steam mains slope down hill away from the boiler), but either way, the piping is just wrong.

The symptoms you are describing are probably cause by a combination of things. One, the near boiler piping is not properly done in a manner that allows water that is expelled up the riser to quickly return, and also to allow the water coming back from the radiators to quickly return. Also, the fact that you water gets dirty quickly, is a problem. It is probably coming from the oils off of the new pipes that have been installed, and after the boiler is skimmed enough, they will have been removed and not a problem.

When water stays up in the system, it can back up in the radiators, come out of the vents, etc. While this is going on, the boiler adds more water, and then when it shuts off and all the water comes back, the boiler is over filled, which only adds to the problem of water being expelled from the boiler.

We need more pictures and more information. There is a ton of expertise on this forum and a lot of guys who are happy to help. This will get figured out. You have come to the right place.

getpeace

Hatterasguy - thank you for the welcome and the laugh.
Dave - thank you for your insight and welcome. Your third paragraph makes sense and I'm learning to understand and arrive at a long-term resolution.
Pecmsg - Brooklyn
KC - I'm still learning about the system. How do I determine if it is counterflow or parallel flow?
Jamie - You are right about the water level. I (by which I mean the boiler guy) can't figure out why the boiler is feeding so much water. He did pronounce the boiler installed in 2008 to be in good shape. Dave's comment might be the reason.

I've taken a few more pictures and added them to the original post. I took a video but not sure if it is able to attach. The picture quality is not the best as it's on a smartphone. Please let me know what angles or what to show with better clarity. I can touch up or retake the pictures. The space is tight and only light by a bulb so I'm trying to get the best shots possible.

Fred

Aside from the near boiler piping be wrong, as has already been said, has the boiler ever been skimmed? I see some relatively new piping there and the oil from that pipiing will make the water level very unstable. Is there a skim port (above the normal water level) on that boiler? If not, that's a pretty good indication that it may not have ever been skimmed. Also, make sure the pigtail that the Pressuretrol is mounted on is not clogged, allowing the pressure to build well beyond the settings on the Pressuretrol. high pressure will also allow water to be pushed up into the system. From the looks of it, I don't think you can even turn that pigtail off to clean it out. In that case, take the Pressuretrol off and run a wire into the pigtail to open it up. Try to flush the crud out of it after you get it opened.

BobC

We need to see how the boiler connects to the header and how the equalizer is tied in, Tray to take a wider angle shot from the front and the side if you can.

The boiler piping looks very suspect and will have to be corrected (better pictures to confirm) but for now that boiler needs to be skimmed to get rid of the oils to see if we can quiet the water down. Once it's skimmed I would try turning the water feed to the automatic fed control off and see what the water level in the sight glass does.

Bob

Dave in QCA

Yes, what everybody else has said regarding still more photos. I am not sure, but I think I can maybe see a wet return line back in behind your boiler.

Regarding counter flow vs parallel flow, tell us what happens at the ends of your steam mains. Is there a pipe that goes down low, perhaps to the floor and then runs back to the boiler? If so, that is a parallel flow. What this means is that the condensate coming out of the radiators is running the same direction as the steam. Steam runs away from boiler as does the condensate. In a counter flow system, the pipes slope back to the boiler, so the condensate is flowing downhill toward the boiler while the steam is flowing in the opposite direction, away from the boiler.

Also, I am concerned by the manner that the radiator runouts are connected to the steam main in the area of the boiler. There are two that we can seen that appear to be piped into the new mains you had installed. The tees take the pipe off in the same plane as the main. Normally these are slanted up at a 45 degree angle. Are these the two radiators that are still spitting water by chance? Please take a picture of one of your unaltered Tees in the basement, where a radiator runout is connected.

Dave in QCA

Based on what I can see in your photos, I think I have found the proper install manual for your boiler. Look closely at Pages 8-9.
http://www.dunkirk.com/sites/default/files/3870.pdf

Jamie Hall

Did you say Brooklyn? No problem -- try Gateway. does lots of work in your area and it's mostly steam heating jobs. Give the office a call if you'd like. 718-980-0909. They know what they're doing.

getpeace

Am working on better, clearer pics. If not, will retake in the morning when there's natural light as the bulb throws a lot of glare.

I super appreciate the insights!

STEAM DOCTOR

Water level too high. Seems to be a few inches above the recommended water level.

Steamhead

Well, here's yet another Dunkirk that's piped wrong. There is no header to speak of- the steam riser goes right into the main.

And- this is hard to see unless you expand pic #1425 to maximum- there is a 2-1/2"x2" bushing in the boiler's steam outlet. This reduced pipe size increases the steam velocity where it leaves the boiler, which pulls water up into the system along with it.

Someone didn't pay any attention to the installation manual, and this is the result. You can't fix stupid.

These Dunkirk gas steamers will NOT produce dry steam unless they are piped strictly according to the diagram in the manual. And on all but the smallest ones, you need to use two 2-1/2" risers between the boiler and the header to make sure the water doesn't get up that far.

I'll second Jamie- Gateway would be a good choice to repipe this thing.

Gordo

Dear @getpeace, one thing I've learned about Dunkirk boilers is that they are so-so hot water boilers and poor steam boilers.

The "near boiler" piping must be Perfect. In fact, it must be better than perfect. IF, for example, the instructions tell the steamfitter they can use a 2" header, use a 2-1/2" header instead. If a 2-1/2" header is called out, use a 3" header.

The water must be the purest of the pure, or the wet steam it will generate will just blow through even the best near boiler piping. Skim skim skim and skim some more. And when you are done skimming.... skim again. Then you might get it clean enough.

To be fair, in almost all new steam boilers, not just Dunkirks, dirty water will trump good piping. Clean water is the foundation of happy steaming.

With their narrow sections and side outlets, the Dunkirks just excel at producing junk steam from the outset.

Dave in QCA

@Gordo , am I to understand that you don't like Dunkirk boilers? I had an old Pennco and I feel the same way.

The install manual clearly calls for 2 1/2" riser(s) and header. 2" is not enough. There is an equalizer of a sorts, dropping out of the main and it appears, back down to the return. What I can't tell is whether it's counter or parallel flow, and if that's the drip for the whole system. Either way, it's all wrong as you and steamhead say. It could be an illustration under the recipe for "how to make wet steam"

Abracadabra

getpeace said:

After five months of fixes, including replacing steam pipes (with USA made pipes) and radiator air vents, the issues are still not resolved.

Seeing as you installed new pipes and there is no skim port on your boiler, I'm guessing the lack of a proper skimming is causing you significant issues.

Also, what pressure is the boiler set to? Do you have a proper low pressure 0-5 psi gauge and not a 0-30psi gauge to try to read? What's the pressuretrol set to?

vaporvac

"Recently, a boiler guy came and emptied out the boiler and did a boiler blow down (I think), and he checked the boiler system, emptied out the sight glass several times, and checked the flame. He did this for about 5 hours each time over two separate days."

Could he have been skimming it for 5 hours each day? Did I miss the king valves? Without them he couldn't have done a proper blow-down.Do you heat your domestic HW with this boiler as well?

Danny Scully

Where in NY are you located?

getpeace

Ta-da. Retook pictures and tried to do a panorama and 360 degree view with the series of pictures. I hope these help better with seeing the piping. Also, took a picture of the Pressuretrol to show the setting at 0-5 psi as well as the round pressure gauge.

The hot water heater and its piping is separate from the steam heat boiler.

Can you point me to videos of how to skim or how-to guides on skimming?

@Gordo @Steamhead and @Dave in QCA since the Dunkirk has been pronounced serviceable for another decade or more and costly to replace, is the thing to do to get clean water running through the system? I don't know who did the initial pipe install, and 5 months ago when some of the pipes were replaced I didn't know to take "before" and "after" pictures or even what to say prior to the replacement. I hope you won't judge me, but It wasn't until a month ago that I learned what I have is called a steam-heat system, as apparently it's not common enough.

Paul48

@getpeace

The guys(and ladies) here are never judgmental of homeowners. We do tend to get upset when we see shoddy work done by "supposed" pros, but realize that none of that is aimed at you.

There is a posting on the wall, titled HEADER!!!!. With some variation, that is what the piping above your boiler should look like.

Abracadabra

Seeing all the new pipes in your new pics makes me want to say it again as I feel it was missed.

• Add a skim port to the boiler.
  
• Skim the boiler.
  

Not to say that it's your only problem, but it's definitely part of the problem.

vaporvac

@getpeace , these problems aren't your fault. You just have to learn about steam heat now! it's actually really interesting, but can become an obsessive compulsion!
At least now we know the increasing water level isn't caused by a leaking HW coil. Have you tried shutting off your auto-fill yet?
I'm just wondering what the tech did for 10HOURS over two days?

getpeace

@vaporvac I'm beginning to (a glimmer, really) understand what you mean by obsessive compulsion. I watched a couple of talks by Dan Holohan. How have I never heard of him?! Though I'd seen his name a couple of times on Brownstoner and Yelp!.

While the advice and insight are wonderful and I am trying hard to understand it in context (because I lack knowledge through experience), I am very scared of trying any of this by myself. I am working hard at researching things like skimming and valves and ordering a copy of Dan's book.

To your question, the two days that the gentleman was here (a retired boiler guy with over 30 years of experience and referred to me a month ago by a union person), he started by investigating why the boiler's water gauge sits high above the water level. He checked the flame and said it was blue and good, the pressure gauge, the Pressuretrol, emptied out the boiler while it was cold and while it was on and in between heating, replacing the air vents on all six radiators, checking the open/close valves, the sensor that is on the front of the boiler and the automatic water feeder sensor, he tried to see the damper but it's not visible or easily accessible, he looked at the piping and the water feed piping and said it wasn't done well or properly, I forget which, but that first we could try other troubleshooting before having to go re-piping route. He's on holiday visit his kids and grandchildren for a couple of weeks. So, I heard of this forum and brought my urgent question here.

The heat comes on and warms the rooms decently, the difficulty I'm facing is the quarts of water flooding my floors through the radiator and how to stop so much water shooting through the radiator air vent; this makes the water hammering now seem like a small problem in comparison. Reading through the responses, looks like the problem lies with skimming, water quality, and how the piping was set up. I still don't know how to tell if it is parallel flow or counter flow.

Dave in QCA

How to tell if it's Counter Flow or Parallel Flow***

Look at the steam main, starting right above the boiler. It will be pitched running downhill from there, or uphill from there.
If it runs down hill, it is Parallel FLow and there will be drip leg at the end of the main. There is where the water goes down and then runs back to the boiler.
If it runs uphill, it is a Counter Flow system.

BobC

Do you know if the boiler has a skim tapping? To skim that boiler follow these instructions -

Steamhead

getpeace said:

since the Dunkirk has been pronounced serviceable for another decade or more and costly to replace, is the thing to do to get clean water running through the system?

That's part of it. But the piping around the boiler is still wrong. We're not saying replace the boiler, but you need to have that piping re-done. The system won't run well until you do.

getpeace said:

I hope you won't judge me, but It wasn't until a month ago that I learned what I have is called a steam-heat system, as apparently it's not common enough.

Oh, steam heat is very common. It's one of the best ways to heat a building. Unfortunately, knuckleheads are also quite common, which is why we see so many screwed-up installs.

SWEI

getpeace said:

He checked the flame and said it was blue and good

A proper combustion analysis should really be done at some point. http://www.stopcarbonmonoxide.com/ has a searchable list of properly qualified techs. Put it on your list.

Dave in QCA

Here is the piping diagram for a "small" version of this boiler. I am not sure if this qualifies as small. If not, both side outlets should be used.

This will be helpful to the conversation I think.

JohnNY

Thank you for letting me know your availability this weekend, getpeace. I'll see you in the next day or two.
Best,
John Cataneo

JohnNY

Hmm. 479 sq. ft. of steam (boiler) for a 184 sq. ft. system.
Not cool.

BobC

That is seriously oversized but it can work (but not too efficiently). My old v75 was rated at 596 sq ft of steam (it was downfired somewhat) and fed a system with 210 sq ft of radiation, it short cycled but heated the space with no noise or spraying of water.

Bob

getpeace

Thank you, everyone! You guys are awesome!

John came by and having your insight helped me understand what he said. He was great in walking me through the system.

As you shared, the piping is all wrong and there is no skimmer on the boiler so it's never been skimmed. Powerful knowledge here and really appreciate it. Now, I'm going through the stages of grief because the extreme cost to fix this. I wish prior to getting the house I could have known about this and addressed it in the contract. The seller perhaps knew of this. Sigh.

Jamie Hall

It probably won't cheer you up any -- but it's very likely that neither the previous owner, his or her heating company, and the home inspector knew any better than you did when you got into this. But now you do! That's all good!

getpeace

Dear steam heat rock stars,

In navigating my steam heat terror, because now it's gushing gallons of water, last night I was looking at ways to create dry heat so that water doesn't keep coming on to and below the floors and eventually damage the house. Then, I came across your responses here.

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/154579/heating-options-opinions-for-north-east-replacing-steam-heat

It's helping me as I wait for the plumbers.

nicholas bonham-carter

Maybe you can tackle this in stages, so as to make it manageable.
Clean/skim the boiler
Get pressure down
Increase main venting
Summer......


Redo piping--NBC

getpeace

@nicholas bonham-carter Yes, I'm going to stay with steam heat and tackle it in stages. Hopefully, I'll be able to address it properly. Step 1, installed skimmer and the boiler had its first skimming in eight years! Holding breath on the temporary fix to stop the water gushing out of air vents and thus drying up the floor after weeks of soaking (and drying my tears). Then Step 2, properly fixing the piping.

vaporvac

Don't forget increasing the main venting. If going from cheapest to most $$$$ fix, that's second on the list and doesn't require going without heat.

getpeace

@vaporvac What is considered main venting?

vaporvac

@getpeace ,the mains are the big pipes that usually run around the perimeter of the basemement and feed the risers that feed the rads. They basically carry all the steam where it needs to go. But the air needs to get out before the steam can displace it, hence the need for main venting. You need that air out as quickly as possible before fiddling with rad venting. The amount needed is determined by the length and diameter of the mains. The vents generally go near the end of the mains, but the actual placement depends on the specifics of your system. This in itself will help keep the pressure down.

Also, why did you replace the valves rather than repack/repair them? Many of these old valves have special insides that meter the steam. I guess I need to re-read your post to see what you had.