Current fuel prices vs. 10 (and even 30) years ago

DFinMA

Hi all, first timer. I was searching for comments on condensing boiler life expectancy and came across this thread from 2003:
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/68857/high-efficiency-boiler-debate
Future fuel prices are mentioned in a couple of places. The steady rise of fossil fuels has always been a part of payback analysis but, oddly, current gasoline prices are half what they were in 1985 (normalized for inflation). I don't know exactly what NG and LPG are but for the moment I'll assume they're similar.

My position has always been to simply use less fuel even if it doesn't pay itself back financially, but I understand I'm the exception. (As an example I bought a VW TDI 6 years ago based on its low fuel consumption, low emissions [so I thought...] and excellent performance even though the $5000 higher price would probably never pay for itself.)

No real point other than that.

Cheers,
Doug

Gordy

Your position on fuel consumption is one that should be followed. A lot has changed in the HE boiler market since 2003 though. A lot of life expectancy has to do with a competent installation. No different than a CI boiler.

Some of the latest debate is obtaining the "advertised efficiency" in higher temp installations. The installer has to understand how to get the most performance out of the high efficiency product.

Rich_49

Ah , someone with a brain who actually understands economics !
ROI and payback have always been a PITA to talk around . No matter how much fuel costs the thing that uses less fuel will always use less fuel and the consumer will have more of his hard earned money at his disposal instead of someone else having it .

Thing most don't understand is that some things are not investments but necessities . Gordy hit on other relevant points . As long as utilities , governments keep offering rebates and incentives for things which 95+% of the installers do not understand we will continue to have a problem .

For those who believe one way is better than another and would like to see monopolies arise in the market and less competition . I would caution that they need only to study history to find out how they will be rewarded for their loyalty .

It is already starting with solar PV in several markets where grid tied systems are getting ready to be charged in a way that almost penalizes those who helped by volunteering their roofs .

Beware the rebate and incentive programs , nothing is free .

jumper

I see forty year old atmospheric burner furnaces still going.But I see ten year old furnaces being replaced. In XXIst century sell disposable to stay in business.

jumper

>>Beware the rebate and incentive programs , nothing is free <<

Say it again. Electricity provider gives incentive for time of day use. One and a half cent versus five cents in those days of all electric subdivisions. So I install thermal storage for client. But now electric company,grudgingly no less,gives owner eleven cents versus fifteen cents.At eleven cents owner just waits for gas to be hooked up.And electric company doesn't care,I think.

Gordy

Why should the electric company care? Anything that is associated with atmospheric comfort, and is electric is icing on the cake. People need electricity whether or not it's for heating, cooling, or domestic hot water. Not the same as LP,NG, or oil those suppliers rely on seasonal demands except for cooking, and DHW

jumper

The generator,OntarioHydro,likes to run 24/7 so it sells electricity for less during low demand time like night.The vendor,NorthYorkHydro,also likes to utilize its distribution capacity 24/7. But NorthYorkHydro,now TorontoHydro,is a municipally owned monopoly. Plus with heat pumps being more common,and those electrically heated homes,electric demand is pretty high on cold winter nights.So my client invested in expensive ASME rated tanks that no longer provide any return.

Rich_49

A
Substantial
Monetary
Exchange

Always
Sometimes
Maybe
Except

Difference between an ASME approved tank and one that's not is a payment and witness to testing .

hot_rod

Rich said:

A
Substantial
Monetary
Exchange

Always
Sometimes
Maybe
Except

Difference between an ASME approved tank and one that's not is a payment and witness to testing .

Actually there is quite a bit of paperwork involved with a pressure vessel ASME certification. Every component needs to be documented all the way back to the steel plant that manufactured it, Steel, bolts and nuts, welding rod or wire, any valves used, an approved label, etc. An ASME a certified welder, and lastly $$.

Then pressure vessels sold into Canada needs a CRN, providence by providence.

Gordy

Trail of bread crumbs in case of failure.

SWEI

ASME = welded carbon steel walls, 3/16" on some smaller tanks we recently priced out for a job. Some higher end models have replaceable bladders.

Compare prices on an Amtrol SX-60V with an AX-60V sometime.

Rich_49

hot rod said:

Rich said:

A
Substantial
Monetary
Exchange

Always
Sometimes
Maybe
Except

Difference between an ASME approved tank and one that's not is a payment and witness to testing .

Actually there is quite a bit of paperwork involved with a pressure vessel ASME certification. Every component needs to be documented all the way back to the steel plant that manufactured it, Steel, bolts and nuts, welding rod or wire, any valves used, an approved label, etc. An ASME a certified welder, and lastly $$.

Then pressure vessels sold into Canada needs a CRN, providence by providence.

Thanks for the detailed explanation Bob . Many probably benefited from it . Many companies though produce the same quality tank whether it will be certified or not . In that case it is just as I stated . Adding more words does not change that .