High efficiency boiler debate

LD

Looking for opinions on whether or not we should consider spending the extra 3 to 5 thousand dollars for a high efficiency boiler in our new house?
High end units we have been told about include the Viessman Vitodens 200, Munchkin boiler, Weil-McLain Ultra, and others.

We might pay $150-200 per month to provide heat (and hot water) for our 3600 sq. foot house. The weather here is fairly moderate (like Seattle). Based on efficiency alone it would take more than 10 years to get our money back.

I'm wondering if these units offer other advantages such as better heating comfort & reliability that make them worthwhile.

We're installing in-floor concrete slab radiant and an indirect hot water tank (heated by the boiler).

Saving $4000 on our house would be great, but would I be making the wrong choice by not installing a Vitodens 200?

Comments and suggestions?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Boiler Choice

High efficiency boilers aren't quite as straight-cut as high efficiency furnaces.

They shine their brightest when delivering low temperatures that could well destroy other boilers. Your type of system (high mass radiant) in your climate (moderate) would certainly imply that very low temperatures will be required most of the time.

While the piping/equipment required to protect other boilers won't cost as much as the condensing boiler in most cases you should be able to realize extreme energy savings by using a condensing model.

A designer/technician here recently stated, "The [radiant] burner alone [in the Vitodens] is worth the price of admission."

Steve Ebels

HEY!!!

I resemble that remark!

Like Mike said, There is more to it than just the AFUE numbers between boiler A and boiler B. If you are talking an all radiant heating system and you were my customer, I would walk away from your job before I let you buy anything other than a condensing boiler. My personal lust would be for a Vitodens in your application. With a high mass radiant job like yours, The Vitodens would be the perfect boiler IMHO.

If you go with a regular (mid 80%) boiler you are going to have extra cost and maintenance associated with mixing valves or injection pumps and controls, whereas with the Vito you have a piece of equipment that thrives on low water temps. I know it's un-American, but, think long term. Like 20 years+. Where are fuel prices going to be in 10 years? Or even 5 years or less.

DL

Vitodens 200

OK, sounds like I should clearly get a condensing boiler for my application (high mass radiant, moderate climate).

So maybe my question should be more of whether or not buying a 'high-end' condensing boiler is cost effective.

Will a Vitodens 200 cost me less than say a Weil-Mclain Ultra, Munchkin, or lower cost condensing boiler if you factor in all the costs after 5 years, after 10 years, after 20 years?

In addition to energy savings, will it provide more comfort or be more reliable?

I'm okay with buying a non-American boiler if it is indeed better. At the same time, I don't need to have the best piece of equipment if 90% of the performance can be had for 50% of the price in another brand.

Basically I am saying, I would love to justify buying a Mercedes Benz by saying it will save me money in the long run over a Cadillac. But, am I just fooling myself?

Thanks experts!

MikeTH

To condense or not to condense, this is the question

Take a look at the BAXI LUNA 1.31Fi boiler on our web site. This is a high efficient modulating boiler capable of heating a home of 4000 sq/ft. The built in controler in the boiler will allow it to operate in the heating mode up to 45*c (approx 120*f), ideal for a radiant in-floor system, it can also supply 82*c (180*f) for your heating system. It has a priority setting which will "kick up" the boiler output to 82*c (180*f)@ 105000 Btu's for fast recovery to your indirect hot water tank if you are operating in the low temperature mode, all thats required for this would be a diverter valve in the boiler supply pipe. As well, built into the controler is an outdoor reset facility which will work very well in your moderate location.
You don't need to go the condensing route, with the additional costs involved, to get a good quality product designed for your type of aplication. Check it out on our web site, we have distribution in the Seattle area. Contact me if you need more information.

[Deleted User]

Not going to

discuss brands. However, I will quote part of a discussion I had w/ a Euro Boiler Salesperson @ ISH in 2001. I was trying to get his opinion about the American penchant for extended warranties.

Me. "How long do you warrantee your equipment?" He. "Warrantee?" Me. "Yes, how long do you guarantee your equipment will work?" He. "Guarantee?" Me. "We warrantee much of our residential equipment for up to 10 years." He. "10 years? Are you Americans crazy? You work on it for free for 10 years. That is when we replace most of ours." Me. "No kidding?" He. " No kidding."

Enough said.

MikeTH

Velly good warentie sir

Hi Ron,

You must have been talking to a Euro Boiler sales person from the other part of Europe, farther east than us. We have been making boilers for 130+ years and the standard warranty is for 10 years on heat exchangers; with a track record of getting on for 20 years now with this boiler.

[Deleted User]

Mike.

Nope. No two cylinder smoke belchers in that guy's garage.

Tom Meyer

SYSTEM efficiency is what counts

Chapter One, verse one of the Precision Hydronics Hydronics Bible..."Look at the SYSTEM efficiency rather than the HEAT SOURCE efficiency." How much total comfort does the money you spend for fuel bring you and your family?

Senior Designer/Trainer
Precision Hydronics
www.precisionhydronics.com

DL

Tom,

I can understand the concept that the whole system is what is important, not just the boiler.

Can you give me some tips on what to watch out for when it comes to the point where I specify things in our heating system for the contractor? What are common things that could be overlooked by 'bad' contractors?

Example:
Number of zones? Type of zone valves? Size of each
zone? Using an outdoor reset? DHW priority ability in
the boiler?

Using the analogy of automobiles again:
Someone who has never purchased a car before might not
know that 4 wheel drive is a consideration, or a more
powerful engine vs a better mileage model.

What are the key factors to inquire about in a hydronic "system"?

Corby

Condensing Boiler

Your Best Be is a Condensing Boiler.... Payback can only be determined by how you operate your system, ex: you are comfortable at 68 or 72, how do you run your system. condensing boilers love low return water systems, therefor a lower t-stat setting will give you a lower boiler return temp. If you are using a reset control, the control will calculat a lower supply temp, and in return you will get a lower boiler return temp. This will inturn help your heating efficency.

MMC

boiler or other ?

the primary and most important factor is HEAT LOSS .put your money into insulation ,windows ,infiltration ,exfiltration ,losses,out door reset controls. the boiler can always be changed later. remember the boiler always has to over come the heat loss.the higher the heat loss the longer any boiler will run.get the highest r values you can afford . put ablower test on the house be for you close the walls. good luck

LD

Blower door test

I read about a blower door test a while back.
Very approximately how much does that cost to do?

How often does it uncover leaks in new wood frame construction?

Is this is done before or after insulation & plastic vapour barrier is installed on the walls? (just before drywall)

Thanks for all the help people.

LD

Condensing boilers

Other than Viessmann Vitodens 200, Munchkin, and Weil-Mclain Ultra, who makes a condensing boiler?

From all the experts on The Wall, here's the ideal boiler for me:
Well known brand so there's contractors and parts available, Condensing, Outdoor Reset, No aluminum, and hopefully lower price than the Vitodens.

I only know of the Munchkin right now but am not sure how popular that is. And, what about those failures being discussed, is the Vitodens that much more reliable?

Thanks again

leo g_35

weighing in

LD, awhile back, mr. robert bean, wrote a cryptic article here on the wall about this penchant that seems to be sweeping through the wethead community, with making our systems more and more "effecient". or as i would have said, abstract.

the gist that i got out of his article, was that maybe we should pull back a bit, and start to "simplfy" our systems again.

outdoor reset is good, when used in the right conditions and areas. for example, i live in vancouver, bc. today is a pretty typical, late fall/winter/early spring day. raining out, windy, and about 53*F outside.

in this place, outdoor reset can save the homeowner a lot of money on fuel, because we have so many days where less heat is needed to keep a home comfortable. ergo, the controller will automatically adjust the boiler for this.

if i were to be working in the interior of my province, i would probably recommend going with a good, static mixing valve system. the reason being that there is a small "shoulder" at either end of the winter, of these "warm" days, and a long season of "cold" temps. it seems to me that it is not a real burden to teach a homeowner to adjust their mixing valve, maybe 2-3 times a year.

i also, right now, prefer a good cast or steel "regular" boiler to the condensing units. i have heard all too often about other products, "well they have been using this product/technology in europe for twenty years now, with no problems!" (why is it always twenty years??????), only to find out that either it is a bald faced lie, or that their way of installation/use is different then ours.

this is the way i see things at this point, LD, but in the end, you have to feel comfortable with what you want. good luck.

leo g

GW

I love this stuff

If you talk to 10 different heating guys you'll get 12 different ideas. What a country!

Replacing boilers every 10 years in europe? huh? Was this guy on dope?

LD, let me email you some of my "opinions", perhaps you'll find them of interest.

Gary

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mike Kusiak

It appears that some europeans may consider a boiler an appliance, like a refrigerator or washing machine, which may need to be replaced every 10 years. With the level of complexity to be found in the recent condensing boilers, 10 or 15 years life expectancy may be a reasonable assumption. Because of the high electronics content of these boilers, it may be difficult or impossible to repair the microprocessor controls involved in a few years. Obsolescence is a way of life in the electronics industry, and it is typical that the components used today will be unavailable in ten years. This means that the boiler manufacturer will have to redesign the electronics in ten years or so and hopefully offer a retrofit. If they dont, you will probably have to buy a new boiler, like it or not.
Not many people today repair their 10 or 15 year old TV, VCR, microwave, or washing machine. Condensing boilers will probably be replaced in a similar manner.

Unknown

So every 10 years

you spend $3,000 to $5,000 to replace the boiler or furnace.
That is real efficiency. I will stick with my 50 year old GE furnace and my wood pellet stove.

LD

My weather is very much like Vancouver

Leo G,

My weather is very much like Vancouver.
In fact, it is Vancouver. I thought everyone here was
from the USA so I used Seattle as an example.

All along I thought outdoor reset would work better in more extreme climates like Toronto/Detroit. According to your posting it works better in Vancouver.

So, will lower priced boilers like a Burham Series 2 or Weil-Mclain CGa work well with outdoor reset?

Leo G, email me if you are a radiat contractor in Vancouver

Thanks

Mike Kusiak

I think a lot depends on the price of fuel in the future. If fuel prices get to the point where you can save more than 300 to 500 dollars per year in fuel cost, then the payback over 10 years might begin to make sense. I dont think we are anywhere near that point now, comparing a cast iron 80% atmospheric to a condensing boiler.

Unfortunately the price you pay for the increased efficiency of a condensing boiler is the increased complexity, and with the level of complexity comes the issue of reliability. With all the sensors, blowers, and electronic controls involved in a condensing boiler there are just more things to go wrong, regardless of how well they were built. Just compare the reliability of electronic ignition to standing pilot, even with the same quality manufacturer, Honeywell for example.

Eventually the price of condensing boilers will come down as the manufacturers gain more experience and, as production volume grows. They will probably be more like todays water heaters, disposable, with an assumed 10 year life span.

Dont get me wrong, I am not against progress or energy efficiency, but sometimes we don't realize that there is always a price to pay.

Glenn Harrison

Some words on life expectancy from the Manufacturers

After a wonderfull weekend at Weil Mclain and Wetstock II, here's the answers from the experts.

Weil Mclain Ultra high efficiency boiler - 15 to 20 years

Munchkin High efficiency boiler - 12 years (the warranty)

Now this may sound bad, but at least they are being honest, ulike the scorched air manufacturers with there "lifetime warranty" but the heat exchangers are going bad after 10 to 15 years.

Moral of the story - High efficiency will save you money on fuel bills and help the enviroment, but life is sacrificed to achive. All good things have a price inone way or another.

leo g_34

LD

i have been told that there are some manufactures, that test there outdoor reset equipment here, because of our climate!

i'll e-mail you in the next couple of days.

leo g

Ken

> After a wonderfull weekend at Weil Mclain and

> Wetstock II, here's the answers from the

> experts.

>

> Weil Mclain Ultra high efficiency

> boiler - 15 to 20 years

>

> Munchkin High

> efficiency boiler - 12 years (the

> warranty)

>

> Now this may sound bad, but at least

> they are being honest, ulike the scorched air

> manufacturers with there "lifetime warranty" but

> the heat exchangers are going bad after 10 to 15

> years.

>

> Moral of the story - High efficiency

> will save you money on fuel bills and help the

> enviroment, but life is sacrificed to achive. All

> good things have a price inone way or another.

Ken

Life time of standard boilers or electric boilers?

What is the estimated lifetime of a standard efficiency of a ng or propane boiler as well as an electric boiler.

I have heard electric boilers may have trouble with elements burning out on low return temperatures. Anyone have an opinion on this.

Ken.

Matt Connolly

The ideal boiler for you would be...

the Monitor MZ. 100% fully condensing with a stainless steel heat exchanger. These units have been around for 23 years with a great reputation for reliability and ease of service. They cost less than the Vito, and have dual temp controls built in for low temp heat and high temp DHW recovery built in. They also have the best guarantee in the condensing boiler market - 15 years on the HX, 3 on all other parts. Go to www.mzboiler.com for more details or email me directly - I've had one in my house for 4 years and have installed many others.

Matt

Luke Lefever

I, too, like the MZ Monitor.

My $.02 worth....

I put in an MZ Monitor (MX25C) last fall in our house. First one I have used. Certainly won't be the last. Fantastic boiler. We heated this whole heating season for what it used to cost to heat for one month. Our fuel consumption is down to 20% of what it was last year. I would certainly think that our old boiler was in worse shape than yours- so many situations would not see the results we saw... But anyway. I can speak with any authority about Munchkin, Ultra or Viessman, but I sure like my Monitor!

Luke Lefever, Lefever Plumbing & Heating, Elkhart, Indiana.

Jed_2

Biasi SG, Biasi SG, Biasi SG

Oil or Power Gas----Forever, and be done with it.

Jed

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Blower Door

To answer one question: I believe a blower door test is only useful when the structure is absolutely complete as there is no real way to compensate for "what is to be".