Respect the old boiler's water line in a replacement?

Jamie Hall

Sigh... I'll wade back in, I guess. Somewhat against my better judgement. He has two options. Well, three.

First, and simplest. leave the water line where it is and put the boiler up on a nice stand. Concrete block, poured concrete, granite with an inscription. Whatever. If concrete block, cost is almost nothing.

Second, lower the wet returns all the way around the basement, everywhere, no exceptions, and fit additional lengths to every single drip that goes into them, everywhere, no exceptions. Depending on how old the pipe is and the fittings, this could be not so hard or it could be a bear.

Third, create a reliable false water line piping at the boiler. Not that hard to do, although a bit tricky to get it really right, but involves a good bit of pipe and fittings.

Take your pick, good buddy.

Jack M

Jamie Hall said:

Second, lower the wet returns all the way around the basement, everywhere, no exceptions, and fit additional lengths to every single drip that goes into them, everywhere, no exceptions. Depending on how old the pipe is and the fittings, this could be not so hard or it could be a bear.

I'm doing my best to locate all the wet returns. So far I only see the one that runs below the chimney cleanout. There is room to lower that wet return when the Hartford loop gets hooked up.
I don't see any others. There is what I would call a "dry return" that carries condensation back to the boiler. It starts way up high near the end of the main and drops down to what becomes the "wet return." It would be a pain if that pipe had to be lowered. Some of these pipe have not been touched in a very long time.

Fred

It took me a good while (see my postings above) to finally understand what the OP actually has here. It is a bit different than most Mains/returns. His main loops only around the chimney area. It branches to the left of the bull headed Tee and turns and runs down the left side of the Chimney where it dead ends (This is the proposed connection to eliminate the Bull headed Tee). It also branches to the right of the Tee, turns, runs down the right side of the chimney, turns again and runs along the back side of the chimney where it turns into a short dry return that drops down to the only wet return he has (as seen in the pictures). All of his radiator run outs then branch off of that small loop, around the chimney. @Jack M , Based on all our back and forth on the piping, do I have this right? If so, I think just extending that vertical and that short wet return to the floor is the only thing that he needs to do to set the boiler at/near floor level. JMHO.

Jack M

Fred said:

Ido I have this right? If so, I think just extending that vertical and that short wet return to the floor is the only thing that he needs to do to set the boiler at/near floor level. JMHO.

Yes, this description is correct from what I can gather: main that splits, looping/wrapping 3/4 of the way around the center brick chimney; 6 radiator runs tapped into the main (5 taps on the longest stretch, 1 tap on the shortest). The lowest point of the main is where the return is attached, running 3 feet before angling down toward the floor becoming the wet return. It is at this bend in the return (where the pipe drops) that the only vent is attached. I have read that this location (the drop) is not ideal for the main vent. Is this true?
Also what is meant by "extending that vertical?" Which vertical is this comment in reference to?
Finally, is there an advantage tapping a second main off the header? Any reason to do this? It would not seem to be a monumental task when doing the other work. For that matter, I could move a few of the radiators from the chimney, out to the outside walls. I don't have another system to compare to. Is this an odd above boiler arrangement?

Fred

It is recommended that the vent be about 15" before the drop to the wet return. This helps protect the vent from crud and/or damage from any water hammer. many, many of us have the vents right at that drop because that was/is the only convenient place for them and they work fine.
The vertical I refer to is the one that drops down to that horizontal wet return. Extend that, at the bottom, so that it is close/or at the floor and then carry that horizontal wet return over to tie into the Hartford loop.
You have one rather short main. I wouldn't change that, other than getting that Tee out of it, tieing your riser from the Header into the end of that main (as you drew it) and putting a union and a short nipple in where that Tee is now.
Most of us see the main/mains run closer to the exterior walls of the basement. That typically allows for shorter radiator run outs but I certainly wouldn't make that change. It would mean a lot of pipe, perhaps cutting some of your radiator run-out shorter and maybe even extending some, for no real advantage. There is no need for a second main. If any of your radiator run-outs are unusually long as a result of that main being so central, that it affects venting the air out of them, that can be adjusted by the type/size of vents you put at the radiators.

Jack M

Any suggestion on the best placement of the boiler? With this new installation the boiler could be set in various alignments. Is this just a person preference decision? Is there an incentive to create a wet return of a specific length? I'd like to maintain access to the chimney clean-out.
The install guide says to keep 12" in the back for cleaning out the flue-ways and 24" in front for the swing door. And to keep the smoke pipe distance as short as possible.

nicholas bonham-carter

You can change the route which the pipe follows to enable it to clear the chimney. The golden rule is to keep the wet return well under the boiler waterline, no matter how far away it is from the boiler. It can be 20 inches, or 20 feet below and will function properly.--NBC

Jack M

why did the last installer go to all trouble to cut a new hole in the chimney, move the boiler location, raise the boiler up on blocks, add a bull nose "T" and split the Main?
A great deal of effort for what? What was the logic?
The old boiler location could have been used and the only remaining task would be tying in the wet return and the header connection to the main.

ChrisJ

Jack M said:

why did the last installer go to all trouble to cut a new hole in the chimney, move the boiler location, raise the boiler up on blocks, add a bull nose "T" and split the Main?
A great deal of effort for what? What was the logic?
The old boiler location could have been used and the only remaining task would be tying in the wet return and the header connection to the main.

I can't answer that.
What I can say is whoever did it, piped it wrong. That much is clear so everything else they did doesn't have any credibility in my book.

Fred

Who knows what the thinking was when he did that but we know he didn't put a Header in, no equalizer and that Bull headed Tee. I wouldn't build my new install based on the current installation. You are going to do a new install AND fix an array of prior sins.

KC_Jones

Perhaps they set the new boiler before removing the old? Some attempt to make sure the heat stayed on as long as possible perhaps? Or maybe to save money the homeowner decided to remove the old one themselves? One will never know.