Boiler only works in 15 minute cycles

DBanno

Have been searching the Internet and the Wall forums here but can't find any solution.

We just had a new steam system installed. OSB-4 Series 2 Oil fired steam. 2 Zones - one single pipe steam to radiators, the other is water feed to baseboards. I've included pics of the build. The system was "completed" less than 2 weeks ago.

Problem: Boiler only works for 15 minute increments, then must be reset. The boiler seems to have an operational window of exactly 15 minutes during which time everything works as it should. Both zone thermostats will turn the system on and off. After exactly 15 minutes, the system shuts down. Never 10 minutes, or 5 minutes or 12 and a half minutes but EXACTLY 15 minutes...every time. Once it shuts down, the only way to get it back on is to manually turn the main power off and on. Just a quick flip of the switch and it resets...for another 15 minutes.

Getting nowhere with the installer. He insists it is a water cutoff issue. He's come back twice when I'm not there. He either fills or empties some water, throws the power switch, the boiler fires up, he tells my wife it's fixed and leaves.... and the boiler stops dead exactly 15 minutes later. Trying to get him to come back when I'm there and to actually stay longer than 15 minutes.

I am an absolute idiot when it comes to mechanical types of things, but it seems to me that if this were being caused by some sort of safety issue (low water for example) then the shutoff time wouldn't be so precise. I could understand the safety system taking 15 minutes from a cold start to reach an unsafe stage, but once reset, wouldn't the unsafe situation cause an immediate (or at least a faster...or slower) shutdown? Why exactly 15 minutes from every single restart? Makes me think there is something defective in some control unit.

Any ideas I can give to the installer would be appreciated.

Thanks
Dave

BobC

That boiler has a cyclegard low water cut off that is designed to shut the boiler down at specific intervals to check on the water level. If you don't do anything does the boiler came back on in a minute or two (if the thermostat is still calling for heat)?

The boiler should be piped in threaded black steel, not copper. What you have will work but after a few years the joints will probably fail and you may start seeing leaks.

Bob

Does the water level move around a lot when the boiler is making steam? Have they skimmed the boiler yet?

DBanno

Hi Bob...the boiler never comes back on and will only work if I reset the on/off switch. Makes for some chilly mornings before I can get to the basement. I haven't notice the water level moving around, but it is within the operable range of 1" below the top and 1/2 " above bottom of visible glass according to the manual. (I may have those backwards). Not sure about skimming, the water looks awfully dirty for less than two weeks old. I didn't know about copper vs black steel for steam until getting on this site. Nor did I realize how different steam was to build....would have looked for an expert. Def will next time!! I'll check the water level tonight and ask if it was skimmed and for how long. Will post back.

Jamie Hall

Chances are pretty good that it's the Cyclegard, since the timing is so exact. However, they are supposed to restore power to the burner if they find that things are OK after a time interval (about a minute and a half). If the water level is below the probe, however -- wherever it is on the sight glass -- it will keep the boiler off. It should reset automatically when the water level comes back up.

They are often regarded as a bit of a nuisance. You do need a low water cutoff -- it's a safety requirement -- but there are others, and if the boiler is properly skimmed and cleaned the intermittent level check feature which the company makes such a point of isn't needed.

BobC

What does the pressure gauge read when it's making steam, it should never go above 1.5 to 2 PSI. What is the pressuretrol set to?

Watch the sight glass when it's making steam, the water level should not bounce more than plus or minus 1/4 to 1/2 inch. The level should be centered at about 1/2 to 2/3's up that gauge glass. If it bounces around a lot it could be kicking out because of low water.

That water should be clean, the boiler has to be flushed and then skimmed to get rid of all the contamination. It may have to be done several times over the coming weeks.

Bob

GW

So do you see the low water LED on? Seems like a lame lwco. You have water half way up the glass? If the water is too mucky the crud can fake out the gage reading.

KC_Jones

In addition to what has already been said your pressure is MASSIVELY to high on the pressurtrol. That should be set prett much as low as you can get it. Certainly not at 9 PSI like it's shown in the picture. So much copper....WOW.

Paul48

Maybe an optical illusion but the header appears to pitch back to the boiler? The installer doesn't have to be a steam pro, he has to be able to read, though.

Paul48

I'm having trouble making it out, but is the skim port piped into the superstor?

Abracadabra

Pretty sure all your near boiler piping is wrong. Did the installer even look at the manual? OSB-4 requires 2.5" riser, 2.5" header and 1.5" equalizer. OSB-4 is rated for 450 sq.ft. of EDR. If that's about what your attached EDR is, the 1" return header is woefully small. Is there a relief valve installed on the boiler? I can make it out from the pics. Should be in the back I believe. Like someone mentioned, what is the skim tapping connected to? How was the boiler skimmed? My guess is you have a lot of water thrown up into your mains. Boiler shutting off on low water.

KC_Jones

Abracadabra said:

Like someone mentioned, what is the skim tapping connected to?

If you look at several of the pictures and follow the piping it looks like the skim tapping is connected to the tank, but that makes no sense?! How can it do anything when it's above the water line of the boiler? To the OP you might want to consider having that piping fixed now instead of "waiting until next time" remember you could be living with this for the next 20-30 years or more. Have you made final payment to the installer?

DBanno

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Will try to update and answer each as best I can:

The installer finally contacted me this morning. He sent someone this morning to do the following. Replace the Cyclegard (in case of defect) and skim the boiler. He said he skimmed it for quite a while at initial install but that the system is so old it needs to be done again after 1-2 weeks of operating. He also said that the oil residue may have either covered the probe or the residue is tricking the Cyclegard into thinking that the water is above the operable lever when it isn't, so replacing the Cyclegard after another skim should take care of that. I'll check tonight to see what happens.

Re: specific comments:
BOBC: the water level bobs about 1/2 to a full inch in the glass once steam starts but never reaches the top of the glass. The oil residue does reach the top of the glass however. I can't really tell the psi as the system only has a 0-30 gauge vs a 0-3. Needle never even appears to moves so assume t isn't getting past 3.

GW: Will check LED light. Assume skimming will eliminate the "crud" which the installer said is tricking the sensor.3

KC-Jones: I lowered the pressurtrol to .5 after taking those pics and reading through a bunch of articles on this site. Yeah...had no idea about copper vs black steal before this site (which was AFTER the install). Haven't confronted installer about that one yet as not sure if it's just recommended or a common industry accepted standard. Would hate to call him out on it and have him reply with "Copper is acceptable for steam if trying to reduce costs for the customer".


Paul, Abracadabra and KC_Jones: you lost me on most of that. Any specific question I should ask installer? Am holding final payment until heat works, so if something is critically flawed I will def ask about it. They did have to rebuild it on day two. The original worker he sent apparently had it piped all wrong (he never even opened the manual). The second crew spent another 2 days reading manual and re-piping.

Thanks again for all the comments and assistance!!

Abracadabra

Exactly how did he skim the boiler? There is no available skim part in any of your pictures. Anyone who knows anything about steam will not use copper above the waterline. I'm sorry, but the guy you had install this boiler has not installed the boiler per the manufacturer's recommendations. If the boiler has been repiped after your original pictures, do you have new pictures to share? Again, the skim tapping looks like it's been piped to the superstor. If that hasn't been fixed you are not getting anywhere with this installer.

KC_Jones

What is being said about the piping isn't just the copper, but the piping that is there is the wrong size. So even though they did it over it still isn't to spec. Keep in mind these specs are MINIMUM. That looks like 2" pipe coming out of the boiler and the manual specifically states 2 1/2" on that boiler. While the manual doesn't specifically state threaded it shows threaded in the pictures (IMHO). +1 on the skimming comments. The pipe coming out of the front of the boiler and connecting to the bottom of your tank, that is the skim port. So that is what we are all wondering, with the pipe connected how is the installer skimming?

Fred

If you are holding final payment, I suggest you continue to hold it because what these guys are telling you is right on. This install is not right and as a Home owner, you owe it to yourself to open that owners manual and compare the pictures in that manual to what you have. There can be any number of reasons why Your system is not running right but you first have to start with a properly installed system and then start trouble shooting.