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New Boiler Design

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Harvey Ramer
Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
Dear Santa;

Any reason we can't just go ahead and have ourselves a ModCon with like a 50:1 turndown ratio. It would solve a lot of problems and additional expenses in a lot of systems. For years I have thought about this. One of the ideas that keeps resurfacing is as follows.

One of the reasons we currently don't have it is because of flame instability at low fire rates. I can certainly see this being the case however, I think it could easily be overcome. If you decrease the flame's surface area in concert with the modulation, I suppose this problem would disappear altogether. If you look at the burner in a Giannoni HX, one would think it would be relatively easy to make the surface area sectional via internal fuel mix chambers. The internal sections would have the appearance of "pipe in pipe" with each section progressing towards the center feeding the fuel mixture to a section further out on the HX. I have a picture in my head for the damper design, that shuts down the sections, but can't come up with a word for it. :(

So anyway, the burner would be able to modulate down to a certain point then one section would shut off. Continue to modulate down, then the next section shuts off. You get the gist.

The internal sections of the HX would also have conical baffles to enhance the mixing of fuel/air at extremely low firing rates.

Sincerely
Harvey
«1

Comments

  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    I've often thought that they were doing it wrong, by trying to do it with one burner. Why not switch to atmospheric when you get down low on the firing rate?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Dear spoiled Brat,

    If I give you everything you want this Christmas you won't need anything in the years to come......For now use the rags I put in your stocking.

    Yours Santa


    This is like when buying a computer when processor speeds were advancing so rapidly. What you bought top of the line was out dated in 6 months. Generally back then the software was held back due to computer processing speeds, and memory....still is.

    Same with other electronics, everything you paid good money for to be at the top of tech was cheaper the next year, and more advanced.

    In a way with boilers something that lasts hopefully at least 15-20 years it would suck to have that happen, and be stuck with something with that much longevity, and cost to not be able to stay at the top of the tech ladder.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    On a lighter note Harvey if you could achieve all that then each manufactor could theoretically offer one size boiler for residential use. Just cap off the high end modulation you don't need, and even the low end you will never see. The horse power is always there to unleash for those once in a decade winters that can go 3 times below design temps.......so long as the emitter is there.

    Think of the parts, manufacturing, and the like to make and service such a breed. Costs should go down, along with parts inventory.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    On that note, they just tested and verified a quantum processor that is a 100 million times faster than anything previous.

    You can slow down on the rags. I have propress.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    Harvey.....I hear it requires no buffering :smile:
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Sorry the Quantum "computer" Google has wont fit on my desk top. Let alone an average mechanical room.

  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited December 2015
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    Harvey , I think Gordy was referencing TPRs not wiping rags . TPR = Turd Polishing Rags .

    PS ,

    Dear Santa , could you be a bit more sensitive to those with visions . Soon , maybe you could deliver the rags to the Bad manufacturers for not providing what we need and want . All the while keeping their prices high because we cannot make hydronics scale and bring cost down a bit .

    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Gordy
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    My initial post was only sarcasm.
    Rich_49
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 998
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    The original certification process for gas fired boilers and the protocol was for a maximum of a 5 to 1 turndown. We now have boilers that can have a 10 to 1 turndown. Low fire with atmospheric boilers is very inefficient due to the excess air.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,784
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    Dear santa,
    Can we please have a steam boiler that has been updated in the last 30 years?

    Please?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    njtommy
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited December 2015
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    Guess it's a good thing we are not discussing atmospheric boilers huh ? At least one manufacturer has developed a nice way to keep excess air where it should be at low fire on modulating condensing equipment that draws it's air from outdoors .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,262
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    Dear Santa;

    Any reason we can't just go ahead and have ourselves a ModCon with like a 50:1 turndown ratio. It would solve a lot of problems and additional expenses in a lot of systems. For years I have thought about this. One of the ideas that keeps resurfacing is as follows.

    One of the reasons we currently don't have it is because of flame instability at low fire rates. I can certainly see this being the case however, I think it could easily be overcome. If you decrease the flame's surface area in concert with the modulation, I suppose this problem would disappear altogether. If you look at the burner in a Giannoni HX, one would think it would be relatively easy to make the surface area sectional via internal fuel mix chambers. The internal sections would have the appearance of "pipe in pipe" with each section progressing towards the center feeding the fuel mixture to a section further out on the HX. I have a picture in my head for the damper design, that shuts down the sections, but can't come up with a word for it. :(

    So anyway, the burner would be able to modulate down to a certain point then one section would shut off. Continue to modulate down, then the next section shuts off. You get the gist.

    The internal sections of the HX would also have conical baffles to enhance the mixing of fuel/air at extremely low firing rates.

    Sincerely
    Harvey

    I think the challenge is flame signal and stability at low turn downs.

    Also, from what I understand the burner and HX surface should be designed to work together, it's tough to have a wide range in one box.

    The Sermeta, former Gianomni (sp) folks are usually at the larger trade shows we attend, they can explain all the engineering challenges with low turn down designs, they have been working on designs of a long time now.

    I'd even settle for multiple 10- 20,000 boilers with 3 or 5 to one turndown that could be stages in. That is all they do with the higher output DUO version boilers, multiple HX and burners in one box.

    I know European homes and flats could use the micro-sized outputs, and warmer climate designs here in the US.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,445
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    Now can we have one for oil? Please?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    kcoppRobert O'Brien
  • ced48
    ced48 Member Posts: 469
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    Why not a series of tiny burners, adding burners as needed, rather than adding more fire to a single burner?
  • jonny88
    jonny88 Member Posts: 1,139
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    I sure do miss my old fireplace in Ireland.Was a lot simpler then when flame modulated down we added more coal then at night to satisfy our body tt we added more blankets.......shiver me timbers..times have changed..
    Gordy
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,262
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    ced48 said:

    Why not a series of tiny burners, adding burners as needed, rather than adding more fire to a single burner?

    That is already being done on larger sizes, Aerco has had multiple burner/ gas valve boiler out for some time now. I think it was an Intergas design, the company that bought or merged with IBC recently.

    The Aerco Benchmark boiler is talking 20- 1 turndown, for 50,000 to 1,000,000 modulation.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
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    ChrisJ said:

    Dear santa,
    Can we please have a steam boiler that has been updated in the last 30 years?

    Please?

    Or at least approve the Megasteam for gas?
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
    kcopp
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,784
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    vaporvac said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Dear santa,
    Can we please have a steam boiler that has been updated in the last 30 years?

    Please?

    Or at least approve the Megasteam for gas?
    True,
    But something tells me they could do a whole lot better designing a quality gas boiler from the ground up. We should have plenty of 85-90% AFUE steamers to choose from and yet there's nothing because no one wants to invest in it.

    They would rather invest in a system that has more mass and more parts to fail.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
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    My guess is that there simply isn't the "market" to invest in redesigning a steamer... other than maintaining "existing" systems. How many new steam systems are being put in? My guess, ZERO ;)
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,262
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    My guess is that there simply isn't the "market" to invest in redesigning a steamer... other than maintaining "existing" systems. How many new steam systems are being put in? My guess, ZERO ;)

    Bingo, BMW

    That is true of all hydronic components. The cost to develop, test, build, and list a product involves a decision based on how many can be sold.

    A lot of the high efficiency equipment makes it way over here from other countries, and gets re-badged and Americanized.

    Although some of the US companies still build mod cons from the ground up, various components are still outsourced.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,784
    edited December 2015
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    My guess is that there simply isn't the "market" to invest in redesigning a steamer... other than maintaining "existing" systems. How many new steam systems are being put in? My guess, ZERO ;)

    hot rod said:

    My guess is that there simply isn't the "market" to invest in redesigning a steamer... other than maintaining "existing" systems. How many new steam systems are being put in? My guess, ZERO ;)

    Bingo, BMW

    That is true of all hydronic components. The cost to develop, test, build, and list a product involves a decision based on how many can be sold.

    A lot of the high efficiency equipment makes it way over here from other countries, and gets re-badged and Americanized.

    Although some of the US companies still build mod cons from the ground up, various components are still outsourced.

    Well,
    In that case why invest in anything hydronic?

    If I'm remembering correctly 93% of US sales are forced hot dust so who cares about hot water?

    If people actually cared about something other than how cheap something is hydronics would be king. And don't stick your nose up at steam, done correctly it could compete with hot water especially when it comes to simplicity and reliability. If we weren't stuck with 30+ year old boiler designs and limited parts.

    A modern vapor system would be something amazing.


    Hot rod, you're probably right about a lot of the designs coming in from Europe. That'd also be another reason for nothing for steam.

    It's a shame for hydronic in general. I expect more from Americans.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,262
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    ChrisJ said:

    My guess is that there simply isn't the "market" to invest in redesigning a steamer... other than maintaining "existing" systems. How many new steam systems are being put in? My guess, ZERO ;)

    hot rod said:

    My guess is that there simply isn't the "market" to invest in redesigning a steamer... other than maintaining "existing" systems. How many new steam systems are being put in? My guess, ZERO ;)

    Bingo, BMW

    That is true of all hydronic components. The cost to develop, test, build, and list a product involves a decision based on how many can be sold.

    A lot of the high efficiency equipment makes it way over here from other countries, and gets re-badged and Americanized.

    Although some of the US companies still build mod cons from the ground up, various components are still outsourced.

    Well,
    In that case why invest in anything hydronic?

    If I'm remembering correctly 93% of US sales are forced hot dust so who cares about hot water?

    If people actually cared about something other than how cheap something is hydronics would be king. And don't stick your nose up at steam, done correctly it could compete with hot water especially when it comes to simplicity and reliability. If we weren't stuck with 30+ year old boiler designs and limited parts.

    A modern vapor system would be something amazing.


    Hot rod, you're probably right about a lot of the designs coming in from Europe. That'd also be another reason for nothing for steam.

    It's a shame for hydronic in general. I expect more from Americans.

    Getting the message out is another big hurdle.

    Everybody knows Dave Lennox! he's on the TV constantly, on billboards, on the side of trucks, everywhere.

    Rich Trethewey is our face in the media, he does a great job but doesn't have the $$ behind him that Lennox, and a few dozen other HVAC manufacturers do. Nothing runs like a Trane:)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ChrisJ
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
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    If money was no object, would you guys install steam from scratch?

    Personally I would do radiant hidden in the floors, walls, ceiling and have totally open wall/floor space.

    Seems like steam offers simplicity and life (like a overbuilt diesel engine) at a cost. Does a heating system need to last 100+ years? Nothing else being built in residential land is....

    Add the "look" of radiators is very subjective.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,784
    edited December 2015
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    If money was no object, would you guys install steam from scratch?



    Personally I would do radiant hidden in the floors, walls, ceiling and have totally open wall/floor space.



    Seems like steam offers simplicity and life (like a overbuilt diesel engine) at a cost. Does a heating system need to last 100+ years? Nothing else being built in residential land is....



    Add the "look" of radiators is very subjective.

    Those that know me know the answer to that.
    I have no plans on living in a home without steam. Hot water is too much of a pain to deal with bleeding, pumps, flooding if something breaks etc.

    I prefer the look and function of cast iron radiators, as do many but I know as you said, many don't like them. If you don't like the look of cast iron there's no room for you in my house. :)

    There have been a few guys on here that have installed new steam systems in homes by the way. Gerry Gill being one of them.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    bmwpowere36m3
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    So they have the burner, and someone has to use it?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited December 2015
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    One of the biggest down falls of steam, or hot water heating is the AC end. Most people want it, and want to flip a,switch on the wall to do it.. Having two systems. One for heat, and another for AC which requires duct work, and heat can go through the same duct work. That's what sells Forced Air. Why should I install two separate delivery systems when I can install one.
    Hatterasguy
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    "Why should I install two separate delivery systems when I can install one."
    Of course you're right but the comfort steam provides during half the year has real value too. It's like anything else, you have to decide what is important to you and what it will cost to have "Year round" comfort. It really is kind of a moot discussion when you think about it. Contrary to the desire for a modern update to steam boilers, but not enough demand to support the R&D, research and development continues for FHA and at some point, all the negatives (or at least most of them) will fade away and simply be a part of the history/evolution of that technology.
    Hate to say it but that's what the near future holds until some other design/technology replaces FHA.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    It's a burner for a water tube boiler...The Burnham K2 uses it, but why is it 5 to 1 TDR on it?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    @Fred you, and I know this. Someone who grew up in hot water, or steam environment knows this, but someone who only has experienced FA will never know what they are not getting.
    Canucker
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    @Paul48 that's what I mean it's just the burner with stable potential for higher TDRs. It's just someone has to marry it to a fuel train to achieve it. At least as how I understand it.....maybe wrongly so. I could not get the video to load.
    SWEI
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    They claim the burner is stable down to 3400 btus. I don't get it.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    I've mentioned it to engineers at three different boiler manufacturers over the past 18 months or so. None was aware of it. None has gotten back to me so far.
  • nicholas bonham-carter
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    If you go to AHR, Orlando in January, they will be there to answer questions.
    Who will be first to put one into a Megasteam??--NBC
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    I'm assuming you would control a modulating burner in a steam boiler with pressure? But why would you need that, when everything is correct in the system, the pressure is ounces?
  • Eastman
    Eastman Member Posts: 927
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    The Sage zone controller for that Burnham K2 is kinda different. It caps the max firing rate to an amount dependent on which zones are calling.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    edited December 2015
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    I think most mod/cons now run multiple curves. So that is not all that unique. The better question is, why would you limit your low end on the smallest version to 15 or 16, when you have a burner that can be stable at 3400, give or take. If you take full advantage of that burner, and then let the boiler control its circ, you've got a winner. Pair that with a DT circ on the secondary side, and it's near-perfect.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    Who makes that boiler Hat?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    edited December 2015
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    Xmas wish.

    @Hatterasguy the need could accommodate more micro zoning. What comes to mind is say baths where a morning boost would feel nice, or kitchens.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    That blue jet burner can go down to 340 btus.