New Boiler Design

Canucker

Gordy said:

Xmas wish.

@Hatterasguy the need could accommodate more micro zoning. What comes to mind is say baths where a morning boost would feel nice, or kitchens.

That's pretty much the only reason I run a setback. I like the feeling of warm rads in the morning

Paul48

Some of the boiler manufacturers that have 5 to 1, drop that to 3 to 1 on their smaller units. Somebody (manufacturer) is going to have to just do it. The problem is, it turns the whole industry on its head. It puts a lot of industries that have popped up to make the current crop of mod/cons work, out of business.

Gordy

That's competition. Innovate, or get out of the way.

njtommy

Dear Santa
Just get me out of these freezer asap. Lol

Paul48

@Hatterasguy


Hat........Did you get that UFT installed yet?

NYplumber

@Harvey Ramer nice thinking and start of a new thread. Good change from all the DT pump talk.
Some thoughts;
Mod cons thrive on low modulation rates due to the high surface area. When the modulation goes down, the fuel and air go down, but surface area of the hx stays the same as its sized for 100% load.
What the industry needs is residential units like the aerco (if i recall it was them) that has two hx one on top of the other. Two fire tubes in a single boiler jacket with a common vent. Most likely the smallest size will be 80mbh. Two burners on low modulation will be more efficient then one at a higher modulation and you get the same BTUs out. It could also double as a 10:1 turn down ratio. Using a pair of 10:1 turn down hxs you can maybe get a 20:1.
The market has already accepted floor standing tall high mass mod cons, its time someone changes the game.
Two hxs each with a 10gal volume would buffer and have a nice efficency rating. At radiant floor temps, maybe even 97-98% efficient when operating at 40% capacity (20% ea.).

hot_rod

Mod cons thrive on low modulation rates due to the high surface area. When the modulation goes down, the fuel and air go down, but surface area of the hx stays the same as its sized for 100% load.
What the industry needs is residential units like the aerco (if i recall it was them) that has two hx one on top of the other. Two fire tubes in a single boiler jacket with a common vent. Most likely the smallest size will be 80mbh. Two burners on low modulation will be more efficient then one at a higher modulation and you get the same BTUs out. It could also double as a 10:1 turn down ratio. Using a pair of 10:1 turn down hxs you can maybe get a 20:1.
The market has already accepted floor standing tall high mass mod cons, its time someone changes the game.
Two hxs each with a 10gal volume would buffer and have a nice efficency rating. At radiant floor temps, maybe even 97-98% efficient when operating at 40% capacity (20% ea.).


Or use one or two 5-7 to 1 turn down boiler, of your brand preference, and connect them to a properly sized buffer tank.

Now you store energy in a well insulated 2- 4" insulation tank, instead of in the mass of an un, or poorly insulated boiler.

The two piece design also allows the components to be mounted in different locations if space is tight.

With a two pipe buffer tank piping, heat energy goes directly and immediately to the load without communicating with the fluid in the tank. So a low mass boiler with 1.7 gallons of fluid, ala Munchkin design, allows heat energy to the load within seconds of firing.

The boiler post purges heat into the tank after the call for heat goes away, and the tank meets setpoint. The boiler returns to ambient, all you energy dollars are ninth Thermal bank.
The tank could be sized to provide an hour or more of heat energy before the boiler needs to be called on. It can also accept heat from other sources, solar, wood, GEO.

There are some nice features of not having all your eggs in one basket as you will with mid or high mass/ volume boilers. Separate the heat source from the heat storage for ultimate system efficiency. Or at least consider the benefits.

NYplumber

Very true HR. I was thinking as a packaged off the shelf item.

njtommy

Like Aerco modulux boiler? mutible burners just add mass say around 20-60 gallons depending on size.
Something like this would work I think, but I guess it really depends on what you are after.
Yes this is more commercial ish. Do to sizes, but I'm sure it could be done on a smaller scale.

aldefed

I was wondering if Hat ever got the UFT installed. I've been waiting for an update as this is a boiler I am interested in.

Jason_13

my guess is the larger demand is cheaper and cheaper products. Who would pay for the higher turn downs. I bet it would add 30%-50% onto the cost of the boiler. It cannot be done with current gas valve or inducers. We may on here but 80% of the country would not. Thye big sellers are the cheapest boilers or water heaters used as boiler. This industry is holding itself back.

CMadatMe

I don't think lower turn downs have anything to do with technology because it's there in Europe. Has all do to with dollars and cents. I can charge you more for a 100,000 btu/hr boiler then a 60,000 btu/hr boiler and it costs me the same to produce. Its actually the same boiler in most cases parts wise and nothing more then software changes. I recently started up 3 Vitodens B2HA150s' - 113,000 - 530,000 Btu/hr as listed in all manuals as its output. When cascading each once was running at 40K and I have verified that they do in a multiple boiler application. Then how come they don't in a single? Because of software not technology.

Boiler mfgs give you more SKUs which allows them to keep the price affordable and maintain profitability plain and simple.

Gordy

I do ceiling radiant before base board any day.. I would even choose it over floors except kitchens, baths, and basement floors.

njtommy

Short cycling monsters I tell you everywhere!

I was just on a call a few weeks ago with a Weil-Mclain Utra boiler 399kbtus. On a maybe 3,000 sq ft building with 2 zones of rads. Guy said they use to have two smaller boilers now the just have 1 big one. The boiler is 3 years old and isn't even piped primary secondary. On top of that the boiler was banging off on high limit. Due to not enough flow across boiler. also no ODR and set to 180 degree. Some of the rads couldn't even get hot due to short cycling along with t-stat placement. They where running space heaters. In the cold areas.

Until they approve the repairs I turned down the firing rate to 35%. Seem to run very nicely there.