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Thoughts?

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Robert O'Brien
Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,541
in THE MAIN WALL
Haven't seen the job in person yet. Not a fan of the design.
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  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    What's the radiant setup?
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    That's some serious pumping going on. What is the logic behind that?
    Robert O'BrienGordy
  • Dan Foley
    Dan Foley Member Posts: 1,258
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    Low loss header?
    GordyRich_49Zman
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,541
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    Dan Foley said:

    Low loss header?

    I was thinking of a 4 way mixer?
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  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,541
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    Bob Bona said:

    That's some serious pumping going on. What is the logic behind that?

    Not sure. Worked until a couple years ago and now high limit lockouts a few times a day. I'm assuming flow issues but it did work for years. One of the 15-58 may have taken a dump? I've never laid eyes on it
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  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,541
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    Gordy said:

    What's the radiant setup?

    Haven't been there in person, entire house is radiant, all running the same temp, obviously!
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  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    Would love to see the source of that design . Wonder how much fluid that huge mixer will have to sift through to find the right temp ? Looks like fun Robert , will you be advising or installing as drawn ?

    Any other documents ? Guess you'll be performing a heat loss calc for this one huh ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Eastman
    Eastman Member Posts: 927
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    Is the system using ODR?
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    I think it is a bad design. The differential bypass feeds right back to the inlet of the pumps. That could cause the water to get pretty hot in that loop when only a small zone is calling for heat. Premature pump failure.

    Are the pumps staged?

    4-way mixers are great when you need full flow from high temp to low temp. Since you are only dealing with low temp, I would consider injection mixing.
    Robert O'Brien
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    Also, that check valve on the return is likely playing "hide and go seek" with the 3-way mixer.
    Robert O'Brien
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,541
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    Rich said:

    Would love to see the source of that design . Wonder how much fluid that huge mixer will have to sift through to find the right temp ? Looks like fun Robert , will you be advising or installing as drawn ?

    Any other documents ? Guess you'll be performing a heat loss calc for this one huh ?

    It's been in for 9 years, 60KW boiler. I don't need a heat loss to tell me it's way oversized.
    Harvey Ramer said:

    Also, that check valve on the return is likely playing "hide and go seek" with the 3-way mixer.

    Spring checks all over the place. "Engineer" spec'd them
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  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    You could always pull the internals out of the improperly placed checks and leave the housings inline, if that's what it takes...
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    What induces flow through the boiler if the mixing valve closes off?
    I can't see the logic for two 15-58's in parallel when one 26-99 would have worked. Redundancy in case one fails?
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Wondering if the original designers thought process with parallel 15-58's was some redundancy if a pump went down......obviously from the symptoms that was not thought out very well.
  • Eastman
    Eastman Member Posts: 927
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    The dual parallel pumps with bypass would produce a relatively flat pump curve. A flat pumping curve is/was the industry recommendation for zone valve systems.

    The mixer must have been intended to be a high limit protection system only. Is the mixer set to a fixed temperature or does it use ODR?

    I would guess somebody messed with the target temps causing either the mixer to throttle and/or additional zones to close, leading to a low flow condition in the boiler due to lack of hydraulic separation.
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    The system needs a low loss header and 1 pump, not 2. The flow rate is more than 6 gpm and while the 3 way mixing can be used, it's not necessary when only one temperature is required. The LLH with sensor will provide the correct setpoint temps without a mixing valve and motor. Primary/secondary piping is not used with Viessmann mod-cons.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    But you will need a heat loss to know how to make it right Bob .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Robert O'BrienHatterasguy
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,541
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    Rich said:

    But you will need a heat loss to know how to make it right Bob .

    Sure, and when I tell him it's twice the size or more needed, he'll trash it and go for a new properly sized boiler!
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  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
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    And you'll still need a room by room . My point is that in any case a room by room is needed to do it right . You don't disagree do you ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Robert O'BrienHatterasguy
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,541
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    Rich said:

    And you'll still need a room by room . My point is that in any case a room by room is needed to do it right . You don't disagree do you ?

    Rich has a penchant for sending nasty unsolicited messages. If you have something to share, just do so here. Since I will post them here anyway from now on, you may as well! Or you can just desist from sending me any messages at all, which would be my preference! You seem to be quite obsessed with what I do, where I couldn't care less about you!


    Rich's message from today


    "Figures ! By the way , I saw on another discussion where you eluded to performing 30- 40,000 boiler jobs . Did we add a few extra zeros in there or are you actually that good that you really do not need to perform heat losses like the rest of us ? Can I borrow your boiler elves ? "

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  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766
    edited December 2015
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    Thank you Robert for posting that . I would have posted it publicly if not for Dan's requests last week to be more civil . Messages are not solicited per say , as opposed to sent from one to another .

    Dan , please note that I did not display this publicly as per your request .

    For the record Bob , I do not really have a problem with you as much as your penchant for stating that heat losses are not required in any circumstance it would seem . Although others may lack the Testi to state these facts I do not . We ask almost 100% of the posters if they have performed or had this performed yet you for some reason believe you do not require the same . My obsession is not so much with you personally , it is with you as much someone claiming to be a consummate professional that many listen to that does not perform the very first step required in performing a service properly .

    Glad you posted my message so I could respond without fear of censure . I have much to say and contribute to anyone willing to listen and leave your antiquated ways in the past where they belong . There , you won't have to post this for me .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,541
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    You are anything but civil and your attitude obviates the value of anything you may have to say. Please leave me alone and I shall return the favor!
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  • Eastman
    Eastman Member Posts: 927
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    So did the system get fixed? What's the plan?
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,541
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    Still haven't been there. Will update
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  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    pressure bypass is stuck open or set wrong?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    I don't like the design either.
    The dual circs make little sense.
    The differential bipass in that location only flattens the effective curve of the circulators, it does nothing to maintain low through the boiler.
    The 3 way mixing starves the boiler of flow when the valve modulates.
    It looks like a wall hung mod/con. Why are they mixing to begin with.
    Assuming it is a mod/con, I would think primary/secondary would work better than 4 way mixing due to the high head loss characteristics of the boiler.
    If I was guessing as to "what changed", did the boiler scale up a bit so it now has very low flow and overshoots the high limit?
    Was the drawing engineered or from a supply house designer?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    It's a wb2 15-60. So yeah why mix to begin with??

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