New Steam Boiler Installed-Feel Free to Comment

cubicacres

After 3 months & nearly 300 hours of research with Dan's books, this site, and many contractor & supply house conversations, we finally finished our new single-pipe steam boiler install Friday afternoon. Attatched are some photos-feel free to share any thoughts you might have. We'll try and make any adjustments as needed going forward to keep our system running optimally as best we can, given that this was a surprise install for us that we didn't expect & budget anything for 3 months ago :-)

Some questions that we thought about included:
-The two risers are a single run of 3 inch pipe 30 inches above the boiler jacket, compared to the shorter nipples for the 4 in header. Could this be an issue with vibration in the future?
-The horizontal run on the drop-header is longer than some of the examples we saw, any drawbacks or benefits for this length?
-The pitch is not quite certain for the header, towards the equalizer with one level measurement, away with another.
-The equalizer reduces from the 4 in header to 1.5 in vertical pipe after the 45 degree angle. This was standard 1.5 inch size, but we considered a 2 in pipe for the top equalizer pipe, would this make any difference?
-The boiler was pressure-tested at WMC & at the local distributor, then filled 3-4 times during the probe LWC & auto-water feeder testing with 10-minute delay upon initial start-up. The probe was suspected to have oil on it and not ready accurately the first few times. I didn't notice other skimming even though we have a skim port-the installer said this was fine since the water was clean form previous testing. Reccomended further skimming schedules?
-We heard lots of water (a few gallons?) passing through the longer condensate pipes (3 main loops of various lengths) upon initial start-up. Is that normal, and should the wet return drain valves have caught that initial rush of water?
-They said they used "Squick" to clean the boiler before start-up and removed it via the lower tapping on the side of the boiler. We wanted to be there to see it, but were unavailable the last few hours of the install.
-Installer reccomended against the $500-$1,800+ King valve setup to blow down the mud-leg, and suggested draining the boiler once a year or so using either of the lower valves and the full 60 psi city water pressure to clean out the bottom of the boiler.
-We kept the single Gorton #2 main vent on each loop, and added a Hoffman #75 on the 2 longer loops, along with added plugs for additional main venting in the future.
-A simple thermostat was installed in one of the units for now when the indoor sensor had been, until we confirm we can use a warm weather shut-down with the thermostat or a Tekmar #279 stem controller & #76 with indoor/outdoor/condensate return sensor to optimize the burner run time & heat cycles. With that low water cut-off & auto water feeder with 10 minute delay, this worried the installers that the Tekmar or warm weather shut-down would conflict with the boiler and not let it run properly, causing more trouble than it's worth?

hvacfreak2

Man that looks really nice.

KC_Jones

To address your comments. The header looks fantastic you have nothing to worry about with pipe lengths or anything. Also don't worry about the horizontal length on the header. I don't see any issues with the equalizer. The biggest issue we have seen on here is people reducing on the horizontal which makes a dam for condensate in the header which you don't have. You will in all likelihood need to skim more so be prepared for that. Monitor your sight glass while it's running and see how much it bounces. A small amount of bounce is normal, but if you see it bouncing a couple inches or surging to the bottom of the sight glass that's and indication you need to skim more. Most on here agree there aren't any cleaners that can fully replace a good skimming or several. You are probably going to find you need more main venting. I have a small residential system powered by a WM EG-40 and have almost as much venting as you do. I am completely lost about your installers worry about the Tekmar. I really, really don't understand what a LWCO or auto feeder would have to do with it either. The Tekmar tells the boiler to come on same as a thermostat, just the logic behind it's function is vastly different from a thermostat. Would be interested to hear their logic on that one or perhaps lack of logic?! And the install overall looks fantastic, your installer can turn some pipe for sure.

Dave0176

The install is very nice, would rather see cast iron fittings but malleable will work just fine, I would've done some things differently but all in all that system will produce dry steam and you should see a major improvement over what you had.

Can't understand his quote for King valves but what ever.

You will probably want to add more main venting as it is very minimal for that size of a system.

j a_2

Looks like it may work if all the details are detailed....not that it matters but I to don't like those fittings....You will find out soon just how well it works...why no manual bypass on the auto feeder, not a fan of those either, but that's just me...dissimilar material at relief valve...not a fan of that either...the clean out procedure puzzles me...why not go the conventual way....? You asked and we answer,so don't shoot the messenger...On this site there are some really really picky people, and that works in your favor...Again from what you said and what pics you posted you got a decent job, time will tell....Do not let a small problem escalate, deal with it asap....Skimx10

Paul48

-"We kept the single Gorton #2 main vent on each loop, and added a Hoffman #75 on the 2 longer loops, along with added plugs for additional main venting in the future"

"-We heard lots of water (a few gallons?) passing through the longer condensate pipes (3 main loops of various lengths) upon initial start-up. Is that normal, and should the wet return drain valves have caught that initial rush of water"?

I only see 1 riser for 1 main. Also, there's a couple other things that make me have questions. Why are the vents above the boiler, on what appears to be the ends of dry returns? Given the size of that boiler.....how is it possible, the dry returns come back to the boiler, just below the main, height-wise?

j a_2

You also have two pressuretrols on one pig tail....makes no sense

j a_2

To clarify above statement, the number one reason pressuretrols don't do there job is the pig tail gets all kakapoed so now either of them will work....very common....

cubicacres

Thanks for the comments-all of your thoughts the last few months have been very helpful! We're glad we could convince the installers & the engineer who was there the first few hours to follow the best-practices for getting drier steam in our new system.

We can do more skimming & add main venting going forward. We have a single riser leaving the boiler at 4in pipe, then reducing to 3.5in about 10 feet up for 15 feet before splitting into the short loop at 2.5in that runs about 15 feet before returning to the boiler room as a 1.25in condensate return line. This one heats up quick (has one old Gorton #2 vent a few feet outside the boiler room just past the last radiator so far-see attatched picture "Short Loop Old Vent") on initial firing of the boiler Friday. The other branch is 3.5in and splits into another loop 10 feet from the first short-loop branch. This middle-length loop is about 20 feet longer than the short one, or maybe 35 feet total before returning to the boiler room as a 1.25in condensate return pipe (one old Gorton #2 & one new Hoffman #75 main vent in the boiler room on the condensate return line 10 feet past the last radiator so far). The longest loop is about 25 feet longer than the middle loop, or maybe 60 feet total before returning to the boiler room as a 1.25in condensate return pipe (one old Gorton #2 see Attatched picture "Longest loop old vent" just past the last radiator heating the front hallway about 20 feet before the boiler room & one new Hoffman #75 main vent in the boiler room about 25 feet further down the condensate return line from that Gorton #2 so far). Any thoughts on our main vent placing so far? The middle loop has a radiator just before the boiler room, so that's why we kept the vents for that loop in the boiler room. The longest loop Hoffman #75 vent was added in boiler room for convenience during the install, but we're wondering if that union/sleeve just below the Gorton #2 vent on the picture on the right below can add additional Gorton #2 vents as desired.

The installers were concerned the Tekamar controller might conflict with the safety loop shut-down of the LWC & 10 min water delay for the auto water feeder with meter VXT-24 model. They thought it might ovveride the LWC & encourage dry-firing, and/or not produce enough steam if the LWC & 10 min water feeder delay don't have much time to work with anyway, with the Tekmar adjusting the steam cycle time down from there, preventing adequate steam levels in the system. Also, will the Tekmar's heat request be lost during LWC safety shut-downs, and not remember to call for heat again once safe water levels are restored? Tekamr tech support told us that the Tekmar is a secondary controller like a thermostat, and only functions when the LWC allows the boiler to operate. We tend to agree with Tekmar & the wall's comments about it, and feel it wouldn't harm the boiler.

KC_Jones

What Tekmar told you is accurate it essentially functions in place of a thermostat. I have a feeling your installers have no idea about controls at all. There is no boiler control that will override the safeties and dry fire the boiler, unless the installers hook it up incorrectly and make it that way. Basically you have 2 wires at the boiler you either hook up the Tekmar or a Thermostat. For what they are saying to be true the thermostat could do the same thing. If they are that concerned with the LWCO that would honestly make me nervous. Are they planning on the system being so leaking it goes off on low water a lot? Leaks are the death of a boiler and you should make sure you don't have ANY leaks. You should be monitoring the boiler on a regular basis I would say weekly at a minimum. The LWCO is a safety for an emergency and you SHOULD NOT let it be a convenience item that keeps your boiler full of water. If your installers are leading you to believe it's a convenience item they are leading you down a bad path. Also in case you or the installer aren't aware the 10 minute delay on the auto feeder is to allow water to return to the boiler on the off chance you have a slow return. If the system is working properly this should almost never happen. So the LWCO activates and shuts burner down, then tells the auto feeder it needs water. The auto feeder says whoa cool your jets let's wait and see. Water returns to boiler LWCO deactivates and drops the call for water and everything is happy again. I am glad you have been sticking to your guns on this install!

cubicacres

Thanks for the clarification.

We saw the extra pigtail they had with them, and commented since the engineer mentioned setting up a "tree" for both pressuretrolls & the gauge the first few hours, but they ignored us on this one due to apparent space limitations on the control area. It was a busy day, and we thought if we add a vaporstat later, we could make that small adjustment later & add a pigtail (hopefully this isn't a big job in the future).

We'd like to have them come back to address the city boiler inspector's question about why the vertical city water pressure reducer device (forgot what it's called-just past the backflow preventer on the copper intake water line) has a wire holding the handle in the up position, so maybe we can get a few adjustments & a skmming demonstration at that time.

The tennant living above the boiler room told us the boiler makes a "basketball-bouncing" noise every 30 minutes or so, so maybe something needs adjustment (auto-vent damper settings, more skimming, not level)?

Our suspicion since we didn't directly observe any skimming, is that the dirty water is fogging the sight-gauge glass, causing some noises, and tripping the LWC & giving the LWC probe difficulties per the initial fire-up they did (it was blinking on & off with it's amber light rapidly).

Abracadabra

cubicacres said:

The tennant living above the boiler room told us the boiler makes a "basketball-bouncing" noise every 30 minutes or so, so maybe something needs adjustment (auto-vent damper settings, more skimming, not level)?

You sure it's the boiler and not the hot water heater making that noise?

wcs5050

Black iron bypass energized with fresh water between backflow and pressure redux valve should be copper. Wonder what the logic on the backflow relief air gap is. As mentioned black iron out of relief no good. Cyclegard is great for poor performance and increased fuel consumption.

vaporvac

What do you recommend in place of the black iron out of the relief valve? Reading this now twice so I guess I'll replace mine.

SWEI

Copper if you want it to look nice. CPVC if you want it safe and legal at the lowest price.

hvacfreak2

Hatterasguy said:

cubicacres said:

Also, will the Tekmar's heat request be lost during LWC safety shut-downs, and not remember to call for heat again once safe water levels are restored? Tekamr tech support told us that the Tekmar is a secondary controller like a thermostat, and only functions when the LWC allows the boiler to operate. We tend to agree with Tekmar & the wall's comments about it, and feel it wouldn't harm the boiler.

Do yourself a huge favor.

Take that Cyclegard POS and get rid of it.

Replace it with Safgard which does NOT have the ILT.

The $100. is well worth it. You can find one on e-bay if you're patient.

You do not want that boiler stopping and thinking about a water level every 10 minutes. The genius who came up with such an idea ought to be drawn and quartered.

There should be some class action lawsuit brewing for that thing.

hvacfreak2

Hatterasguy said:

hvacfreak2 said:

There should be some class action lawsuit brewing for that thing.

I actually spoke with ECR about it. They are quite convinced that it is necessary to stop the boiler every 10 minutes because they are deathly afraid that the tiny steam chest is insufficient and that the boiler will run out of water. When boiling, the probe is effectively useless because it will be splashed with sufficient water to keep it from tripping even if the actual water level is dangerously low.

They are so afraid of this that most ECR steam boilers have the low water probe about 3" below the nominal waterline. Utica is the exception.

They should find something else to build , low water cut offs just are not their thing since they are so freaked about it. Thats cool that you actually called them and asked " **** " , lol.

I don't have much to say publicly about products that I may not like or don't agree with , but that thing is the exception.

Sorry about the hijack , the topic is the o.p. boiler , sorry to comment twice about the lwco.

cubicacres

Attatched are some more photos of our boiler & controls.
I think we had them install a low-water cut-off (Safeguard probe-style), and a VXT-24 auto-water feeder with Red LED water meter (just above the LWC photo). Does that look like there's another boiler probe in there, or the Cycleguard as mentioned in the above comments? I saw the "Cycleguard" label on another similar-looking unit online, but only saw "Safeguard" on ours. Can we tell if it's clearly as Safeguard or Cycleguard?

The next photo shows the 2 valves we had them install on our wet returns to isolate them from the boiler for the first start-up, to hopefully catch any crud before it went into the boiler with the first condensate return water on initial fire-up. We heard water running down the 3 condensate return lines form each main loop-run, but I wasn't there to observe if they caught it before it reached the boiler itself. If not, can we remove the crud using another means such as either of the 2 blow-off valves in the next set of photos on either the right of left side of the boiler itself? In the future, is there a reccomended schedule to use these valves to clean the wet returns?

Would those 2 valves at the left & right side of the bottom of the boiler (black & blue handles) have any different uses other than occassional blow-down (but LWC is a probe-style, so not very often), or to drain the water if chemicals were added occasionally?

And that brown wire hold the city water PSI reducer handle up in the last photo-the city boiler inspector was wondering about that. First time he saw a vertical one. Any thoughts?

Lastly, we were thinking about adding more main venting for the medium & long main runs. Are the Gorton #2 vents the largest available? Should they be on the main itself, rather than further along on the condensate return? Some are in the boiler room because the last radiator is just outside the boiler room wall on the other side.

Fred

There seems to be more valves on this boiler than necessary. Not that that's a problem, in and of itself. The black handled valve at the bottom of the boiler allows you to drain a little boiler water out to clean out the mud leg in the boiler. It's a good idea to open that once a year and let any crud run out until it runs clear. The other one on the side of the boiler isn't going to serve much purpose. The blue handled valve on the piping on the Hartford loop should always be open unless you are doing some wet return flushing. It will allow you to close that hartford loop off and keep crud from washing into the boiler. The black handled valve at the very bottom of the wet return will allow you to drain the wet returns. Hopefully you have another access point on the wet returns that you can hook a hose up to feed water into the wet returns to flush out, even though you have a very short run of wet return.
That definitely is a Safegaurd LWCO. A much better option than the Cyclegaurd.

cubicacres

Thanks-glad to know we have the Safeguard instead of the Cycleguard for less issues going forward. For some reason I remember a secondary probe being mentioned during the install at one point, but I may have been just imagining things-there was a lot going on that first day with 5-6 people running around (engineers, boiler installers & part carriers, etc.)

With one of those mud-leg valves, is opening one & letting the city water pressure around 60 psi? on the water feed bypass blow-out the bottom of the boiler a good idea to clean things out annually? This was suggested as an alternative to isolating the boiler with the King valve.

I think we didn't get a 3rd valve further up the condensate/wet return lines to help with flushing the wet returns, unfortunately. We removed all the old wet returns (all the below-waterline & up to the condensate return level another 5 feet past the elbow on each of the 3 condensate return pipes) with the old boiler ourselves. There was some corrosion in the old wet return pipes, but with our earlier pipe replacement job in August that started all this, only about a cup or so of crud. Any thought on what we can do if the initial fire-up condensate water pushed some condensate line crud back into the boiler and we didn't make use of those valves yet?

Fred

If by chance you do get/have a little crud in the boiler, just open the mud leg valve a let a little boiler water run out until the crud is out, maybe a gallon of water. When you refill the boiler, run it for 15 minutes or so to get rid of any excess oxygen in the fresh water. I doubt that you will have much crud in the boiler with such a small amount of wet return. You really don't even need to try flushing it with the city water pressure. Gravity will do the job. The city water pressure might just stir it up inside the boiler.
You are going to have to do several skims too.

cubicacres

Thanks. Next we'll add some more Gorton #2 main vents to the middle & long loops. Can we simply shut the boiler off, then add another to this current one in the photo below using a T at the base of the vent itself to keep the height above the main, and follow with a 3rd or 4th vent later if needed, moving to the right?

cubicacres

We didn't want to limit the vents ability to vent by sharing the same small vertical pipe with too many Gorton #2's if we could add them a better way (another vertical pipe for each vent, etc.)

Fred

That looks like a 1/2" pipe. You will only be able to put two Gorton #2's on that pipe because that's about all the venting capacity a 1/2" pipe has. More than 2 vents on that pipe will be wasted money. How long is that Main and what diameter?

GW

I don't understand why the long horz pipes that lead to the drop. The vent piping to chimney had to offset because of this? Nice looking installation.

Gary

SWEI

Anybody notice the black pipe on the BFP?

Fred

GW said:

I don't understand why the long horz pipes that lead to the drop. The vent piping to chimney had to offset because of this? Nice looking installation.



Gary

That looks like a dry return at the end of his main (Gorton vent is a dead give-away). I would say it goes through the masonary wall (not chimney) and back into the boiler room where it drops to the floor and becomes a wet return to return water back into the boiler.

GW

Fred I was referring to the 26 gg vent (smoke pipe). I've always tried to make the chimney piping a matter of priority. Still a superb install.

cubicacres

Our single 4in main riser form the boiler splits into 3 loops about 20 feet past the boiler (initial 4in main becomes 3.5in 10 feet past boiler before the first loop splits off) . Our guesstimate is the (first)short loop=20 feet 2.5in pipe/1.25in condensate return, medium=60 feet 3in 1.25in condensate, long=70 feet 3in 1.25in condensate from the split to the last radiator. The short & medium loops only have 10 feet after that before hitting the boiler-the long has another 30 feet since the last radiator is far away from the boiler room across the basement. Is venting capacity measured just from the boiler to the last radiator, or also the condensate return space?

Our old boiler had the 3 condensate pipes drop as soon as they returned through the concrete wall of the boiler room, so they were about 5 feet each longer as wet returns below the water line of the boiler. Now they return above the waterline near the ceiling of the boiler room, and drop just a foot or two from the boiler. Any issues with swapping that 5 wet return feet with dry return feet on each of the 3 condensate return pipes now that the new boiler is installed?

GW

SWEI, yes but I'm unaware that you "can not" do that. Most of us use copper on the relief/vent, and copper right down to the larger diameter black pipe. Only moving fresh water will close up the black piping. I'm not sure how many decades that will take on this installation, adding water to a steam boiler. Maybe if the steam venting goes it will hasten the process. I've seen black pipe installed in plumbing (by mistake, or, by a compete hack, who knows) that did close up, but that was a sink, not a boiler.

SWEI

I'm not 100% sure where the boundary lies, but I've definitely seen my share of rotted out CI PRV's as well as a few black nipples that were almost completely occluded. We use 304 SS nipples between the BFP and the PRV just in case.

I'm not sure where the branch of that tee goes once it leaves the photo, either.

GW

yes i hear that- officially, after the 9D, you can run whatever you want. Obviously we all have our idea what "should" be done. I just started using SS myself on indirect water heaters (the tees)

cubicacres

Were you commenting on the black steel/brass/black steel relief valve? It looks like a short nipple of steel black pipe up form the boiler until the relief valve, then more black steel pipe with a nipple, elbow & nipple down to the floor (I think within 2 inches of the floor is code for us).

SWEI

Good stuff.

We have found that the Class 150 SS fittings have passages equivalent to the next size up in Sch. 40 (brass or iron.)

vaporvac

Why is iron out of the relief valve "no good". I'm replacing mine, but would like to know the reasoning. I never read this until recently or I would never have done it in the first place.

SWEI

Fresh water contains oxygen, and often chlorine as well. Both will attack iron.

GW

vaporvac said:

Why is iron out of the relief valve "no good". I'm replacing mine, but would like to know the reasoning. I never read this until recently or I would never have done it in the first place.

The idea is that the running water will close up the relief, creating a hazardous situation for a boiler relief, or a conceivable back flow failure on the domestic line. I routinely run a short black nip into a 90 ell (to make a relief change out faster than if it all soldered/pressed), the a copper pipe to the floor. One local inspector said he wanted all copper (and or brass), so we did that for him. I feel this is rather silly- the water is going to have to leak for how many years before it closes up? And. no one seemed to notice the giant puddle of the floor? The industry doesn't care if the appliances don't get maintained, but a potential piece of black closing up is a concern? Me no comprende

vaporvac

SWEI said:

Fresh water contains oxygen, and often chlorine as well. Both will attack iron.

So how does this differ from using iron in my risers, etc on my steam system? My water has generally been boiled which removes the chlorine and oxygen. When replacing this do I go copper out of the boiler (union) to the relief valve and back to copper to the floor as @GW did ? Where is the iron the problem?

cubicacres

Any thoughts on those 3 wet return lines being a few feet shorter now that the condensate drops down next to the boiler instead of across the boiler room in our old installation?

SWEI

vaporvac said:

SWEI said:

Fresh water contains oxygen, and often chlorine as well. Both will attack iron.

So how does this differ from using iron in my risers, etc on my steam system? My water has generally been boiled which removes the chlorine and oxygen.

Right, and the water in a hot water heating system is even less oxygenated.

When replacing this do I go copper out of the boiler (union) to the relief valve and back to copper to the floor as @GW did ? Where is the iron the problem?

I'm not sure there is a problem, as pointed out above.

My concern is the piping of the water feeder on the upstream side of the PRV, which will be continuously exposed to fresh chlorinated water.

j a_2

Man do I totally agree with the relief valve not being black pipe....but have seen it all the time in pics posted here of beautiful boilers so I as always said nothing. Lol.